[flash]

lol - i certainly hope you were hugging a tree when you typed that

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[968LS1]

Pcarfan-The LS2 is an improved version of the LS1, 364ci vs 346ci. The main difference is the 4' bore vs. the 394 of the LS1 the stroke remains unchanged. GM also moved the crank sensor and knock sensors. The intake and TB are also different but not necessarily better. The problem with buying a crate engine vs one from a totaled car is that you don't get all the accessories than you need. Buying parts individually can really add up. Good used LS1's with low miles (<35K) can be bought for $3500-$4000 with all the accessories included, another $2500-$3000 if you want to add Heads and a cam for more hp. Stock LS1's with headers and compuer tuning will do 300-325RWHP with ease.



The Renegade kit has a lot of good parts, I buy some things from RH and I use other parts that I feel make for a better conversion for me or is more cost effective. The car I am working on currently has a drysump oiling system and the oil pan is totally different than what RH sells or than custom pan I have in my car. I am fabbing custom engine stands, possibly different headers and I am sure something I haven't thought of yet. Making it all fit under the hood properly without running a spacer between the X-member and the body is critical. Screwing up suspension geometry by moving the roll center or inducing bumpsteer is not acceptable to me. Labor can range from a minimum of around $3500 up to $5000, it really depends on the car and what the customer wants. Track cars are usually less because they typically don't have A/C or P/S and are typically more rough around the edges. I will not do one these cars without a big brake package on the front, if you add this much power, convert to manual brakes the brake upgrade is a must. Total cost for the conversion depends on what you really want. 18K for a stock LS1 conversion is high by probably 3-4K really depends on your engine cost. If anyone wants a stock LS1 conversion and will pay 18K CALL ME! Ha Ha. The cost can vary a lot from stock engine vs modified, big radiator vs stock, billet pulleys/braided lines/oil coolers and other aftermarket "nice items" drive up the cost but usually make the conversion nicer. Suspension bushing upgrade is not necessary, springs/torsion bars and shocks will make for a safer better driving car. You will need a 944 torque tube as the 968 will not work and that requires dropping the rear suspension and yes it is a bitch. I changed bushings because I use my car for DE's; my car had a lot of miles and the suspension was shot. The issues of low cost maintaiance, reliability and power vs a turbo conversion is what made me figure out the conversion. I looked at doing the turbo conversion myself and with stand alone engine management and a high quality engine the cost was over 20K. The design of the LS1 make it lightweight, very reliable and easy to work on. For example, all of the gasket surfaces are o-ring type not paper or cork, so if you take something apart you don't need a new gasket to put it back together and typically LS1 don't leak oil. I have $500.00 software package that will scan the ecu for data or trouble shoot engine codes so I can work on the electronics myself. So far I have had no reason to use on my car (except to learn how it works) as I have had no problems. I did have an aftermarket thermostat fail at a track event but that has been it.



I hope I have somewhat answered your questions.



PS Flash you going to have to ride in my car and get some relief on the gearing thing. You could run a 944T gearbox and get more of the gear drop you are looking for on the highway. Whats nice is cruising in 5th gear at 40mph and not down shifting to pass someone,

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[PcarFan]

Thank you for taking the time to answer all my questions! I appreciate it..it has helped a lot. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/cool.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

when i was figuring the 18k, i was figuring everything new, and him not touching any of it - that meant 6500 for the engine (per your earlier post), 5k for the install, another 2k for parts, another 2k for exhaust, 2k for suspension and brakes, and then the rest for the inevitable odds and ends - i got there in a hurry



as for not needing to upgrade the bushings, i could not disagree more - the stock ones aren't really up to the job on the stock car - it's been one of my main gripes about this car - you start talking about pushing around the car with the power of a V8, and a lot of people are going to get into more trouble - that's why the guys on the track change them too - people will naturally push the car harder if they have more power - it's fun - unfortunately, most will not upgrade their skills when they upgrade their car - that's a formula for disaster - rubber bushings are nice and forgiving on a street car, and give a nice smooth ride, but they suck for performance driving - i have already found out the hard way what their limits are



at this point, i'm not even comfortable about the torsion tube mounting points of the rear lower control arms and the upper shock mounts - they are only sheet metal - i plan to get in there and change that very soon



remember, this VW rabbit/beetle suspension was not designed for even the weight and power of this car, let alone what it would be capable of with a V8 - every time i turn around and make one change to try to squeek out a little better cornering, i find out where the weak points are - once i'm done finally getting the suspension up to snuff, then i will be ready for the significant increase in power - right now, the car can barely handle what it already has



ya know - a thought just came to me - the perfect application for this conversion would be a tip car - the shifting would be smoother, lessening the effect of the rubber



i do look forward to driving it - it sounds like you have done a great job on the conversion, paying attention to the things that are important, and not taking the cheap way out, which would result in a very large and very expensive doorstop

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[968LS1]

Flash, I agree if your car is a track toy the bushings are a great improvement, on the street the stock rubber bushings are fine with the V8, I drove my old car for 3 on the street and a some DE events and had no issues other that wishing it was more precise at track events. The stock bushings are not unsafe they just have compromises with pushed to the limit in a track envryoment. On you estimate of 18K considering a new engine you are probably damn close. I thought about a Tip car too, but I don't thing the tranny could handle the torque and the shift point interface with the ecu would be tricky.

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[flash]

hmmm - i don't like the rubber bushings on a car with a stock engine setup - they just move around too much - as i said, that has been one of my main gripes about this car's design - these suspensions are sloppy, gushy, lumbering, and spongy (i couldn't think of 3 more) - it's been that way on every 968 i've driven so far - that makes it a great road car for sure, but a lousy sportscar - maybe it's that i have been driving cars that are so much lighter, smaller and tighter for so long, that my perspective is skewed, but i really notice the unpredictable sponginess of the rubber on this car, and am much happier now that i got rid of it - much less tramping and jiggling and snapback under load - i can't imagine how nutty it is with real power and rubber though



my thought is that anybody who does it though, is going to push it, and even with the stock engine, i don't think the suspension is up to it - at least, not the way i run the canyons (jim child will probably start yelling at me now) with so much power, you are bound to be going through the corners, or at least coming out of them, faster - i know i would - that means more side load - at that point, i'd be thinking about spindles too - those things apparantly snap like twigs on the track



i have no idea what the mapping on the tip would be like - i know very little about the tip - i'm just remembering how much easier it was to adapt a V8 in a small car, when using an automatic - it made all the weak links a lot less subject to stress



anyway, i'm sure the car is a blast to drive, and look forward to it - the 302 MGB, 289 fiat 124 spyder, 350 240Z, 383 Vega, 302 Pinto, 215 MGB, 215 Datsun 510, and blown 302 944 were fun to drive too (and almost as much fun to build)



p.s., while it's a toy for me, mine is still a street car

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[jpr]

[quote name='flash' date='Dec 28 2005, 01:32 PM']hmmm - i don't like the rubber bushings on a car with a stock engine setup - they just move around too much - as i said, that has been one of my main gripes about this car's design - these suspensions are sloppy, gushy, lumbering, and spongy (i couldn't think of 3 more) - it's been that way on every 968 i've driven so far - that makes it a great road car for sure, but a lousy sportscar - maybe it's that i have been driving cars that are so much lighter, smaller and tighter for so long, that my perspective is skewed, but i really notice the unpredictable sponginess of the rubber on this car, and am much happier now that i got rid of it - much less tramping and jiggling and snapback under load - i can't imagine how nutty it is with real power and rubber though



my thought is that anybody who does it though, is going to push it, and even with the stock engine, i don't think the suspension is up to it - at least, not the way i run the canyons (jim child will probably start yelling at me now) with so much power, you are bound to be going through the corners, or at least coming out of them, faster - i know i would - that means more side load - at that point, i'd be thinking about spindles too - those things apparantly snap like twigs on the track



i have no idea what the mapping on the tip would be like - i know very little about the tip - i'm just remembering how much easier it was to adapt a V8 in a small car, when using an automatic - it made all the weak links a lot less subject to stress



anyway, i'm sure the car is a blast to drive, and look forward to it - the 302 MGB, 289 fiat 124 spyder, 350 240Z, 383 Vega, 302 Pinto, 215 MGB, 215 Datsun 510, and blown 302 944 were fun to drive too (and almost as much fun to build)



p.s., while it's a toy for me, mine is still a street car

[right][post="13821"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

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[jpr]

I have also done the conversion to the V8 using the 968 transaxel. Mine was done by Mike Goki of German Performance in Ft Lauderdale Fla. He is currently doing an LS2 install on a 944 for NASA racing and has done many other LS1's and LS6's. My friend campaigns a 944 turbo with the LS6 engine in it and it runs laps only 3 seconds slower than the vaunted GT3 911's at Homestead and Sebring. The way he walks away from some very high dollar competition is a sight to behold.



As for my conversion, I find the car a ball to drive. I have never had as much feeling of being pasted to the seatback as you get with this car when you give it some stick, particularly impressive in 6th gear. My engine came from a z28ss camaro with 6k miles. I'm currently trying to source a longer final drive for the 68 box but Ill still keep it if I don't find it.



The suspension is 300lb/in springs front and 28mm torsion bars rear with Leda remote resevoir 24 position shocks and elephant racing springs and stock sway bars. Brakes are big blacks up front and stock rears, unboosted. I'm going to the 6.5 to 1 ration the 968LS1 has since 4 to 1 is a little tough after a couple of hrs of city driving. Otherwise, staying away from the headaches of keeping a high output turbo engine running well, is well worth the effort and result.



Cheers



Jpr

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[PcarFan]

That is a beautiful swap! and he's not too far away from me <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/cool.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

had a very long very nice conversation with 968LS1 - sounds like he's addressed everything he could think of - still not sure which way i will go - a lot will be dependent on the gearbox getting set up the way i want - it will be very interesting to drive this car

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[Mark]

$308 roundtrip from LA to Birmingham on SouthWest <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[968LS1]

Pcarfan-I apologize I did not think to tell you about Mike Gokey at German Performance in Ft Lauderdale. I haven't spoke to in quite a while but I know he has done several 944T LS1 conversions. He does great work as you can see from the photos of the 944T, not to mention being a really nice guy. I think you would do well to have Mike convert your car if you decide to go that route.

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[midospike]

Tom,

Very Very nice work. I did a 77 911 from RH and I did my own 88 mazda rx7. Both engine were mid 80's chevy 350's. I was looking into doing it to my 968 next. How much harder is this install then on a 944? Would I be able to get most of the parts from RH? What would i need to do extra then the 944 kit? One last question. I love soft tops. Would it be easier and cheaper to find a 944 convert and do the RH or sell my engine and extra parts and do my 968. I need more power. Love my 968 style but lacking power. thanks

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[midospike]

my old car....

http://www.renegadehybrids.com/911/Verna...nardS.html <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[968LS1]

midospike,



The install is about the same for the 968 and 944. One of the challenges is getting the engine to fit under the hood, especially on the 968 where the hood line is lower. Renegade spaces the crossmember and control arms down 5/8" to allow the hood to close. When I first started my conversion I tried using spacers until I saw the negative effect on the suspension geometry (roll center change, increased bumpsteer and increased ball joint angle). I ended up cutting up my oil pan and gaining more clearance; that required shorter engine stands, but it was worth the effort to make it right. I feel the only correct way to make the conversion is to mount the engine low enough to clear the hood with out these spacers and leave the suspension pick up points as Porsche intended. In order to clear properly the oil pan must be shallow enough in the front section to clear the steering rack and x member. You can buy almost every thing you need from Renegade to do the conversion, but their oil pan and motor mounts will require the spacers to clear the hood. If you like the 968 convert it, if you did the 944, I would start with a turbo not a NA 944. The turbo gearbox, spindles and brakes are more suited to the increased power.

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[flash]

hmmm - stating to have an idea



since you have to change the torque tube anyway for the conversion, and the turbo gearbox is more suited to it, and the rear 968 clip can easily be fitted, the interiors can easily be matched, the only thing left is the front clip - a tilt fiberglass front end would solve that one



a 944 with a V8 in 968 drag.......hmmmmm

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[PcarFan]

cant you just put in the turbo gearbox into the 968?

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[flash]

sure, but it seems more economical and ultimately better from a weight standpoint to use a 944 -



here's the thinking:



since you have to modify the hood for clearance anyway, changing to a different material starts to make more sense - as long as you are doing that, doing the same thing with the fenders also makes more sense, and if you make a full tilt front end, the fitment issues go away, and structural stability of the panels is increased



since you have to change the torque tube anyway, and the gearbox also works out better, why not start with a car that already has them? - seems to me the conversion would be faster and easier, with less change - the full tilt would give better access for working on the car, would weigh less, and have the same body lines of the 968



sounds like a heck of a toy in the end, and for a lot less effort and expense - i can snag a 944 S2 cab for about 6 grand - another 3-4 for body panels - drop in the motor and bingo! out the door for less than just buying a clean 968



i'm starting to think about this more and more now

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[ether_joe]

[quote name='flash' date='Jan 5 2006, 12:05 PM']sounds like a heck of a toy in the end, and for a lot less effort and expense - i can snag a 944 S2 cab for about 6 grand - another 3-4 for body panels - drop in the motor and bingo!  out the door for less than just buying a clean 968



i'm starting to think about this more and more now

[right][post="14192"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Flash sounds like you have your next cover article! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[968LS1]

After owning several 944T's and a 968, the 968 is much improved structurally over a 944. I can't remember where I read that the 968 chassis is 30% stiffer in torsional rigidity, but I can tell you they are better. Putting a 951 gearbox in a 968 would be the best option for gearing and cost but they are not as strong. Modifying the hood on the underside does not bother me because no one looks at the underside of the hood, they are too busy looking at the engine when the hood is up. Personally I don't like fiberglass parts on street cars as they never look as straight a metal and over time they develop stress marks and cracks. Aftermarket fiberglass, no matter whose it is never fits worth a damn, and requires a lot of work to get straight.

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