[kodomokid]

Hey guys and gals,



I am thinking about buying a 911 eventually. Unless my plans change drastically, I will try to purchase one in a year or 2. I know there are a number of you who have 911's. My first thought is that I do not want to go with anything older than a 964. I like the classic look but I do want some of the modern comforts like power steering and a stronger climate control. I really do want a 993 solely based on looks and from what I read, it is the best air-cooled 911. But I am not sure if I can afford one. What are some of your thoughts about the 2 types of 911's. How do they perform like road manners, driveability, and reliability? Also would you go with a C2 or C4? I am not interested in 996's or 997's. To me they are too big and too heavy. They are nice, don't get me wrong, but I feel they are too mass produced to some degree. Thanks in advance for any thoughts and input.



Brian

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[huskydog]

That is a hard question to answer. It really depends on your budget first, and then an asthetic perspective, after that performance and handling can be a personal choice. One of my best friends has a 993, great car fun to drive like most any Porsche. More difficult to handle on wet roadways like highway exit ramps, etc. I had a 01 996 and thought driving could not be any better....until I bought a 997. From my perspective there is no better 911 than the 997 series. I think the ride, was much more comfortable, the handling superior and the styling the best combination of all models. If you can afford it I'd vote for the 997.



There will be many differing opinions, drive them all, and buy the nicest you can afford.

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[porsche]

Brian,



A strong argument for the 964 over 993 is price. Since languishing when new in Porsche showrooms, the 964 was/is considered the "red headed step child" of air-cooled 911s. Also, the 964 debuted during a horrible recession. Both the tempid reception from air-cooled fans and sour economic times lead to poor 964 sales volume.



In the early 90's Porsche struggled to sell 5,000 cars a year (not just 911s, but 5,000 units total!!!). These were/are "Ferrari" / exotic type build totals. Porsche did two things to solve its financial woes.



The first was to offer a flurry of "one off" 964s to entice buyers. To name a few:



1992-1994 America Roadster

1993-1994 RS America (oh la la!!!!!)

1994 C4 Widebody Coupe

1994 Speedster (very lovely)



The second solution was adopting Toyota's version of JIT manufacturing (e.g., an acronym for "just in time"). Many books could be/likely have been, written regarding this change. Let's just surmise that this resulted in the 968 being replaced with the Boxster and the 993 being replaced with the 996. Every one has an opinion on this change.



Back to the 964, 1989 - early 1992 examples suffered from leaky valve covers, pre-mature failure of dual mass clutch and sealed distributer caps. All three of these short comings can be fixed (the updated "ventilated" distributer cap is around $15!).



Also, DO NOT opt for the 964's "sputnik" all wheel drive system (for any year!). Eeee-gads, the 964 C4 system was HUGELY overly complicated, feels like front-wheel-drive and is horridly expensive to fix.



So, the best bet are the late 1992-1994 models; and the least expensive, being a standard 964 C2 Coupe or Cabriolet (as "one off" examples command a hefty premium). If you like the Targas, be prepared for a "mushy' 911 experience.



For the US, the 1995 model year brought us the delightful 993 (which every one loved and they are still cherished by the air-cooled legions). The 933 was a vast improvement in every way over the 964 and was a tad less expensive than the outgoing 964.



One of the most notable improvements was the new LSA multi-link rear suspension (e.g., acronym for "light, stable, agile"). The newl LSA suspension suppossedly "cured" the 911s wretched trait to "rotate" or "trade ends" with little provocation. So the 993 is the "safest" 911 for novice 911 drivers!!!!!



Also, the 993's new C4 all-wheel-drive system was far simpler than the 964's "sputnik" system, worked well without calling attention to itself and didn't require a small fortune to keep in working order.



My personal favorite picks from the 1995-1998 run of 993s is the 1997 1/2-1998 C2S Coupe and 1997-1998 Cabriolets. Both have currently softened a little market wise, but still far more expensive than a nice late model 964 C2.



my 2 cents,

Porsche

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[kodomokid]

Thanks for the info, but my heart is set on earlier 911's and not the more recent models like the 996 and 997. I honestly feel after being in a 997, it has become more of a GT car. Also there are way too many electronics in these cars. Too many things to break. They are nice, but not what I am looking for.





[quote name='Huskydog' post='47910' date='Feb 21 2008, 04:58 PM']That is a hard question to answer. It really depends on your budget first, and then an asthetic perspective, after that performance and handling can be a personal choice. One of my best friends has a 993, great car fun to drive like most any Porsche. More difficult to handle on wet roadways like highway exit ramps, etc. I had a 01 996 and thought driving could not be any better....until I bought a 997. From my perspective there is no better 911 than the 997 series. I think the ride, was much more comfortable, the handling superior and the styling the best combination of all models. If you can afford it I'd vote for the 997.



There will be many differing opinions, drive them all, and buy the nicest you can afford.[/quote]





Porsche,



That was great information. If you were to lengthen it a little more, then I think it would make for great reading in a magazine. Currently, I think that a 964 C2 is more with in the realm of reality for me. But I still love the look of the 993 both interior and exterior. I agree with you about the "red headed step child" comment. The 964 is a very nice machine, but I think aesthetically and mechanically, the designers got it right with the 993. I will continue to look around. The information about the early 964's and C4's is great to know. This was very helpful.



Thank you,

Brian







[quote name='porsche' post='47916' date='Feb 21 2008, 05:46 PM']Brian,



A strong argument for the 964 over 993 is price. Since languishing when new in Porsche showrooms, the 964 was/is considered the "red headed step child" of air-cooled 911s. Also, the 964 debuted during a horrible recession. Both the tempid reception from air-cooled fans and sour economic times lead to poor 964 sales volume.



In the early 90's Porsche struggled to sell 5,000 cars a year (not just 911s, but 5,000 units total!!!). These were/are "Ferrari" / exotic type build totals. Porsche did two things to solve its financial woes.



The first was to offer a flurry of "one off" 964s to entice buyers. To name a few:



1992-1994 America Roadster

1993-1994 RS America (oh la la!!!!!)

1994 C4 Widebody Coupe

1994 Speedster (very lovely)



The second solution was adopting Toyota's version of JIT manufacturing (e.g., an acronym for "just in time"). Many books could be/likely have been, written regarding this change. Let's just surmise that this resulted in the 968 being replaced with the Boxster and the 993 being replaced with the 996. Every one has an opinion on this change.



Back to the 964, 1989 - early 1992 examples suffered from leaky valve covers, pre-mature failure of dual mass clutch and sealed distributer caps. All three of these short comings can be fixed (the updated "ventilated" distributer cap is around $15!).



Also, DO NOT opt for the 964's "sputnik" all wheel drive system (for any year!). Eeee-gads, the 964 C4 system was HUGELY overly complicated, feels like front-wheel-drive and is horridly expensive to fix.



So, the best bet are the late 1992-1994 models; and the least expensive, being a standard 964 C2 Coupe or Cabriolet (as "one off" examples command a hefty premium). If you like the Targas, be prepared for a "mushy' 911 experience.



For the US, the 1995 model year brought us the delightful 993 (which every one loved and they are still cherished by the air-cooled legions). The 933 was a vast improvement in every way over the 964 and was a tad less expensive than the outgoing 964.



One of the most notable improvements was the new LSA multi-link rear suspension (e.g., acronym for "light, stable, agile"). The newl LSA suspension suppossedly "cured" the 911s wretched trait to "rotate" or "trade ends" with little provocation. So the 993 is the "safest" 911 for novice 911 drivers!!!!!



Also, the 993's new C4 all-wheel-drive system was far simpler than the 964's "sputnik" system, worked well without calling attention to itself and didn't require a small fortune to keep in working order.



My personal favorite picks from the 1995-1998 run of 993s is the 1997 1/2-1998 C2S Coupe and 1997-1998 Cabriolets. Both have currently softened a little market wise, but still far more expensive than a nice late model 964 C2.



my 2 cents,

Porsche[/quote]

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[SILVY968]

I too am planning to add another Porsche to the stable. My choice is a 1995 993 Polar Silver cab.

As soon as the money and the car meet I'll add her to the garage.

Many of the reasons to select this model were outlined above and I must say that I appreciate all of the excellent info.





   



Or maybe a "Wicked" custom later model.





   







Brian

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[Renalicious]

EEEeee <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/ohmy.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



The 996 looks almost as bad as that black whale-tale 968, IMHO



Great info on the 911's! I love the look of the 993, simply because it looks a lot like the 968 (from the front), and its not as ridiculously expensive as the current 997s. If I WAS to get a new 997, its GT3 all the way <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[kodomokid]

Hi Brian,



Here is something to wet your appetite:



http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/car/580617050.html



You know, one of these days we should meet up in Seattle. I go up a lot to visit my mother. I grew up in Seattle and still consider it home.



Brian



[quote name='SILVY968' post='47925' date='Feb 21 2008, 07:28 PM']I too am planning to add another Porsche to the stable. My choice is a 1995 993 Polar Silver cab.

As soon as the money and the car meet I'll add her to the garage.

Many of the reasons to select this model were outlined above and I must say that I appreciate all of the excellent info.





Or maybe a "Wicked" custom later model.



Brian[/quote]

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[wjk_glynn]

For performance numbers, see: http://www.weissach.net/964-993_RoadTestSummary.html



Karl.

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[RPM]

Another consideration is the absence of OBDII diagnostics on 95 993s and all 964s. Despite the added hp of the Varioram equipped 95 and later 993s, I think this is a consideration. Emissions testing, and the cost of fixing sensors and other components, is not going to get easier or cheaper.



Personally, my favorite Porsche of all time is the 964 Turbo S "Flachbau"

Flachbau USA

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[Torbjorn968]

[quote name='kodomokid' post='47906' date='Feb 22 2008, 01:07 AM']I am not interested in 996's or 997's. To me they are too big and too heavy. Brian[/quote]



If I understand correctly the 996 is lighter than the 993.



The 993 is according to GT Porsche 1450 kgs for the Carrera 2 S and 1370 for the Carrera 2. The 964 carrera 2 is 1350 kgs and the 996 is 1320 up to 2000 and 1345 from then onwards. The 968 i 1370 kgs! The lap time around The Ring (as in Nordschleife) is steadily improving on the newer cars.



But that is just numbers. Walter Röhrl driives a 964 RS. And a GT 3 RS...



T

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[kodomokid]

[quote name='Torbjorn968' post='48053' date='Feb 23 2008, 01:40 PM']If I understand correctly the 996 is lighter than the 993.



The 993 is according to GT Porsche 1450 kgs for the Carrera 2 S and 1370 for the Carrera 2. The 964 carrera 2 is 1350 kgs and the 996 is 1320 up to 2000 and 1345 from then onwards. The 968 i 1370 kgs! The lap time around The Ring (as in Nordschleife) is steadily improving on the newer cars.



But that is just numbers. Walter Röhrl driives a 964 RS. And a GT 3 RS...



T[/quote]



Interesting. I figured that the increase in size added some weight. Most other cars makers seem to be increasing weight despite improved stronger and lighter materials. The 997 has gone up in weight compared to the 996 and older.



I have to ask though, what is really helping some of these lap times fall? Is it just the weight, chassis and improved engine power or some of the driving aids in the newer cars. When they do the laps, are any of these aids turned on like PSM and PASM? It just seems there are too much electronics to break.

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[wjk_glynn]

Torbjorn968 is correct. The 996 chassis was a significant step forward on the 993. Its lighter, stiffer, has more interior space and has better handling.



The 997 has a similar chassis to the 996. Its increased weight over the 996 can be attributed to things like more content and wider track.



The 993 engine has the historical significance of being the last aircooled Porsche production engine. But that engine has had issues. They seem to be suffering from early valve-guide wear. This has a knock on effect of clogging up the SAI ports with carbon. When the ODB-II system detects this problem, it generates a Check Engine Light (CEL) with error codes P0410 or P1441. The CEL light will prevent a car passing a SMOG test.



But the 996 engine also has issues, especially with rear-main-seal (RMS) leaks.



As regards falling lap times, its mostly a combination of improving power to weight ratios and improving tires (the factory 997 GT3 tires are borderline slicks). And at the Nordschleife, the best 997 times have been set with PASM set to soft (its a bumpy track).



Karl.

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[kodomokid]

I read about those problems with the 993 and OBDII.



The more I read about the 911's, the more I am starting to wonder if this is the right path. I know that all cars carry a certain risk of major failures. I guess this has more to do about the passion of owning one of these cars. Deffinately I have passion for my 968. I think I will have to sit down and think hard about what I want vs. what I should get.



I am also considering getting a cab instead. With the top down cruising on hwy 1 to Monterey or Half Moon Bay sounds like a great time.





[quote name='wjk_glynn' post='48075' date='Feb 23 2008, 08:32 PM']Torbjorn968 is correct. The 996 chassis was a significant step forward on the 993. Its lighter, stiffer, has more interior space and has better handling.



The 997 has a similar chassis to the 996. Its increased weight over the 996 can be attributed to things like more content and wider track.



The 993 engine has the historical significance of being the last aircooled Porsche production engine. But that engine has had issues. They seem to be suffering from early valve-guide wear. This has a knock on effect of clogging up the SAI ports with carbon. When the ODB-II system detects this problem, it generates a Check Engine Light (CEL) with error codes P0410 or P1441. The CEL light will prevent a car passing a SMOG test.



But the 996 engine also has issues, especially with rear-main-seal (RMS) leaks.



As regards falling lap times, its mostly a combination of improving power to weight ratios and improving tires (the factory 997 GT3 tires are borderline slicks). And at the Nordschleife, the best 997 times have been set with PASM set to soft (its a bumpy track).



Karl.[/quote]

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[porsche]

968ers,



Keep in mind boys, air-cooled 911s haven't depreciated much from new. Just look at the prices 993 TT are fetching (not to mention sales prices of the uber-rare 1997 993 TT S!).



996, 997 & future "Toyota JIT built" 911s will continue to be "disposable" sports cars that are improved upon every next model year. For air-cooled 911 fans, their addiction has nothing to do with "ultimate" perfomance specs.



Spend some seat time in an 80-83 911SC, 86 911 Coupe (with the improved dash/HVAC system while retaining the light weight 915 transmission), or even better, a 5-Speed G50 tranny equiped 87-89 911; and you'll quickly comprehend/understand why so many Porsche faithful consider 1989 to be the last true year for the 911.



Yes, I know this is a thread on the "modern" air-cooled 911s (e.g., the 964 & 993), but for a "real" 911 experience, it's either the "long hood" 68-73 era or 80-89 group (the 78-79 911 SCs had gawd awful smog pumps that "choked" the engines).



Liken the fairly recent "Excellence" comparo of our beloved 968 with a Boxster and 1989 "Silver Anniversay" 911. The author of the article walked away spell-bound by the compelling virtues of the "Anni" 911 (also stating that he would pursue ownership of just such "an early 911"). Keep in mind, the author is accomstomed to test driving Porsches ranging from the latest 9ff, RUF supercars to "back dated" 73 RS / 94 RSR examples.



Back to the 993s, I wouldn't be put off the OBDII equiped 96-98 993s with Variocam (and an additional 15 hp). Instances of OBD II sensor issues and valve guide wear are sporadic and fairly easy to fix (with the right Tech). Also the later 993s have significant improvements over the 95s (both in hp, torque and lack of suspension issues).



By comparison, the 986 (Boxster), and 996 had a "material" percentage of "real" issues. Porsche replaced a considerable number of engines. I'll leave it at that, as you could right a "thick one" on this issue.



Porsche

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[kodomokid]

I have not fully ruled out the 87 - 89 911's. I mainly want to go for these years for the G50 tranny. I have been seeing some really nice 88's and 89's. I need to find some time to get behind the wheel of one of these though.

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[Torbjorn968]

[quote name='kodomokid' post='48108' date='Feb 24 2008, 05:47 PM']I have not fully ruled out the 87 - 89 911's. I mainly want to go for these years for the G50 tranny. I have been seeing some really nice 88's and 89's. I need to find some time to get behind the wheel of one of these though.[/quote]



They will feel agricultural compared to the 968, or basic, rewarding, genuine etc depending on your taste.



How about an early MK 1 996 GT 3?



//T

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[PorscheDude]

I still have fading dreams of owning an air cooled tail dragger.

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[wjk_glynn]

[quote name='Torbjorn968' post='48117' date='Feb 24 2008, 01:07 PM']How about an early MK 1 996 GT 3?[/quote]



Not sold in the US.



The MK 2 was as a MY2004.



Karl.

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[kodomokid]

[quote name='Torbjorn968' post='48117' date='Feb 24 2008, 01:07 PM']They will feel agricultural compared to the 968, or basic, rewarding, genuine etc depending on your taste.



How about an early MK 1 996 GT 3?



//T[/quote]





Not crazy about the 996 styling. Out of my price range. Plus I want and air cooled 911. Like I have said before, there are too many electronics in these newer cars.



Thanks

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[kodomokid]

What do you guys think of this one? I'm going to go check it out next weekend. He said that there has been no issue with any leaks. I will have a chance to chat with his mechanic.



911

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