[LHP]

Just wondering if there is any interest in a performance 4 throttle system for the 4 valve engines in the 944S /944S2 /968.

I spoke with Pete at RS Barn this morning and he thinks that there may not be much call for this kind of throttle system,

but I'm just putting it out there for the 944/968 public to see if there is any interest.



This kind of intake system would require an "aftermarket ECU" for tuning as any stock MAF system would not be able to be tuned to work with it, reaction time etc, as well as plenum that would have to be made to hook up to any MAF sensor would become a restriction to airflow and total power output.



The throttles could be sized from 48m/m up to 54m/m, single and or dual injectors etc.

Clearance for oil filler/separater and possibly the brake power booster could be a problem,

but if people are interested enough these things can be over come.



Thanks: LHP.

www.haywardperformance.com

Any one can get in touch with me via my website email.

Or ph# on website

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[Eric_K]

I'd love to see it happen.



Does Pete or anybody know how much the intake manifold is restricting the engine? Did 9m do anymore work on their ITB? IIRC, it didn't show much on initial testing.

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[RS Barn]

Erik,

I'm afraid to post.

There are a few idiots from the other site that were hot on the ITB idea until they realized there was costs involved. I"ve had extensive discussions and haven't found a way to make it work or have at a resonable cost. I've even discussed prototyping a different manifold.

I'm still on the case. There are real gains to be had her at $10-$12K

YIKES!

Pete

There goes your racing budget

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[LHP]

[quote name='RS Barn' date='Jul 26 2006, 05:08 PM']Erik,

I'm afraid to post.

There are a few idiots from the other site that were hot on the ITB idea until they realized there was costs involved. I"ve had extensive discussions and haven't found a way to make it work or have at a resonable cost. I've even discussed prototyping a different manifold.

I'm still on the case. There are real gains to be had her at $10-$12K

YIKES!

Pete

There goes your racing budget

[right][post="24637"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]





(ITB costs)



The basic individual throttle system would cost $2500.oo usd.

Each system would include manifold,throttles,cable pull linkage,airhorns,

TPS and wiring clip.

The system would use the stock fuel rail in the stock location.

Depending on engine size, throttles would be 48m/m, 50m/m, 52m/m, 54m/m.



There are so many ECU's on the market to chose from,

So I will stay away from suppling them,

this way the customer gets exactly whatever they want.



Thanks: LHP

www.haywardperformance.com

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[flash]

i've been holding back for quite a while on this one, but i guess it's time to finally weigh in



while i love the idea of more power (ya think?), i think we're screwed on this motor when it comes to an ITB setup



lots of stuff to look into on this one, and definitely not going to be cheap to figure out



i would like to see the flow dynamics on the stock manifold to be sure, but at the 4 lbs of boost that porsche says the resonant induction manifold provides, that they claim is half responsible for the increases from the S2, i can't imagine an ITB providing much more power anywhere below 6k



probably work well on a 968 motor that could run 8k or better, but that seriously limits the market for such a thing, really leaving only race cars, and even at that, only ones in modified classes



based on using similar stuff on other engines, at this displacement, you usually see 10-15hp with such a setup - but, since we already have a good 10 from the manifold, that leaves a small gain potential for the 968, at a relatively huge cost per hp gain



as i said, flow dynamics testing would prove or disprove this - the testing process, to determine if there is any potential for increased flow, is going to be costly and time consuming - this is likely why colin tabled his project - i'm guessing that he didn't get the results he had hoped for, and probably didn't think about the boost issue and what it already was providing



it would be nice if some other engine had our design of intake manifold, and had been played around with already - i can't help but wonder why nobody else has used this style of manifold - does anybody know of another car with a resonant induction manifold?



however, a 944 or an S2 could likely really benefit from such a setup



interesting idea nonetheless

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[whakiewes]

Coming from an E30 M3 with instant throttle response, I do feel a difference with a single throttled car. I've had other single throttled car, and everytime I hop into a BMW ITB car, I always want more. Thats just one advantage. There are a lot of questions though that aren't answered, that greatly depict cost.



For one, what size are we talking. 45mm, 50mm, 55mm, 60mm? What kind of thottle plates, butterflies or slide throttles? What kind of linkage, single or individual like more modern cars like the M5/M6? Manifold or open filter? Are you looking for peak power, more response, or a mix?



There are a lot of advantages and disadvantages to ITB's. The main disadvantage is the added parts, lack of vaccum, and design. By design I mean there is a lot more than just slapping them on. The angle of air entering the combustion chamber changes power, fuel mixture, etc... This kind of R&D isn't cheap, and while trial and error can work, not sure if anyone wants to spend that time.



The advantages of course are better throttle response (which can be made with a single throttled car), increase in upper RPM airflow, increase in airflow in general, and a neat looking modification. Thats about all that I can think of.



Now that I have gone over that, here is my thinking. Typically you don't go to ITB's until your intake manifold doesn't flow anymore/better. Thats after porting, polishing, etc of the manifold. Furthermore there are generally a ton of other restrictions beyond the manifold. Whats the point of 50mm throttles if our intake ports are only 42mm? Now your adding in the cost of port matching, if its even possible to go that large (all hypothetical; never pulled engine apart). Say our head flows 200CFM, and our intake manifold can already flow 245CFM, wheres the gain? What about cams? Any cams that flow to 8000rpms? Valve springs, retainers, valves? To answer Flash's question, there are other car now utilizing the resonance intake. One in particular is the Acura/Honda K20A, especially the Type R manifold. Over a typical Type S engine, the Type R dual resonance intake is good for nearly 10whp. The difference though is in the design of the engine when they go to ITB's. There are 300whp NA cars using 2.0 and 2.2L Honda engines, but they are built from the factory to go to high RPM's. The RSX Type S pulls hard all the way to 8000rpms, where as our cars die at about 6800, so even a 7800 chip does me atleast no good. There heads flow a lot at high RPMS in particular, and that was the design. They get close to 30-50whp just by going to ITB's, but that is also at 9000rpms. Worth it? Well in the Honda market, R&D is no problem, so they offer a kit at $1500-$2000 that bolts in with software for 50whp, and its going to sell...just like it is.



That brings me to another point? Why is everyone so sure you have to run a stand alone. Our Bosch Montronic system is pretty adjustable. I have been playing around with it and I am almost 100% confident with enough fiddling I am going to run my turbo setup off of it. The problem is that there are so few people willing to play with it. Other cars running similar systems have crowds of 20k, so its worth it to play around. If I make a bolt in turbo kit good for 320whp for $5-7k, I would bet I would sell maybe 5. 10 if I was wearing my lucky boxers when I decided to market it. So is it worth it to me to spend all the time making jigs, making a setup that is completely bolt on, and taking the chance of the liability for 5-10 kits. Not really...I mean at maybe $1000 profit each, its not. 100 kits, it would already be done. So I am just going to focus on myself for now, and when I can break my tires loose under WOT in 4th then I will maybe consider making a kit for everyone else <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> . My point after my completely incoherent ranting is that I don't think a standalone is nessacary. Our MAF isn't bad, and there is always the 993TT 3.5" to upgrade to or the 928 GTS 4".



If I could get one prototype unit, I would take the responsibility for the software and tuning. Hell I would do the R&D if there were say 10 confirmed orders with deposits, but I really doubt there would be. Even if someone could market it under $3k ready to roll.

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[TheMirror]

Its a very interesting proposition, but one with possibly too small of a market to be considered for production. For street cars its a big longshot, and very much out of bounds in California where it'll have no hope of passing emissions. Racecars are the most logical application here, and with the dearth of 968 drag cars and low number of cars in general; I'm not how many folks would take up the project. It would have to fit into the rules of various club racing classes I guess.



Seems to me it would necessitate a cam change to take advantage of the increased airflow potential at high rpms, and perhaps doing away with the variocam altogether.... as to the layman (me) I would assume it to be challenging to tune with variable cam timing.



From what I remember reading, the 968 head flows quite well stock, but an application like this would need a significant amount of tuning, trial and error with port flow, cam profiling, etc.



Thoughts from the racers?



LHP - Thanks a million for even considering doing the R&D on this product for our engines. We are a small bunch of folks, and appreciate all the attention we can get.



Best,



-Mirror

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[flash]

yes, thanks for considering it, and i think you have a good shot at the earlier cars



emissions was something i didn't even bring up - clearly it won't pass california, and once the other states come across the deadline for federal mandate compliance, it won't pass there either



that really does bring it back to race cars in modified classes



this presumes that it could provide something better than the resonant induction manifold - i know that ITBS work great on other cars, but i just really have my doubts about any significant gains on this engine, because of the manifold (and looks like a similar thing on the acura wes mentioned)



wes brings up an interesting point too on vacuum - many things are run by vacuum on this car - that would all have to be worked out too



i hate to be the spoiler here, but i just don't see it working out on our cars



best of luck though, and let us know how it works out

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[LHP]

[quote name='whakiewes' date='Jul 26 2006, 09:18 PM']Coming from an E30 M3 with instant throttle response, I do feel a difference with a single throttled car.  I've had other single throttled car, and everytime I hop into a BMW ITB car, I always want more.  Thats just one advantage.  There are a lot of questions though that aren't answered, that greatly depict cost.



For one, what size are we talking.  45mm, 50mm, 55mm, 60mm?  What kind of thottle plates, butterflies or slide throttles?  What kind of linkage, single or individual like more modern cars like the M5/M6?  Manifold or open filter?  Are you looking for peak power, more response, or a mix? 



There are a lot of advantages and disadvantages to ITB's.  The main disadvantage is the added parts, lack of vaccum, and design.  By design I mean there is a lot more than just slapping them on.  The angle of air entering the combustion chamber changes power, fuel mixture, etc... This kind of R&D isn't cheap, and while trial and error can work, not sure if anyone wants to spend that time.



The advantages of course are better throttle response (which can be made with a single throttled car), increase in upper RPM airflow, increase in airflow in general, and a neat looking modification.  Thats about all that I can think of.



Now that I have gone over that, here is my thinking.  Typically you don't go to ITB's until your intake manifold doesn't flow anymore/better.  Thats after porting, polishing, etc of the manifold.  Furthermore there are generally a ton of other restrictions beyond the manifold.  Whats the point of 50mm throttles if our intake ports are only 42mm?  Now your adding in the cost of port matching, if its even possible to go that large (all hypothetical; never pulled engine apart).  Say our head flows 200CFM, and our intake manifold can already flow 245CFM, wheres the gain?  What about cams?  Any cams that flow to 8000rpms?  Valve springs, retainers, valves?  To answer Flash's question, there are other car now utilizing the resonance intake.  One in particular is the Acura/Honda K20A, especially the Type R manifold.  Over a typical Type S engine, the Type R dual resonance intake is good for nearly 10whp.  The difference though is in the design of the engine when they go to ITB's.  There are 300whp NA cars using 2.0 and 2.2L Honda engines, but they are built from the factory to go to high RPM's.  The RSX Type S pulls hard all the way to 8000rpms, where as our cars die at about 6800, so even a 7800 chip does me atleast no good.  There heads flow a lot at high RPMS in particular, and that was the design.  They get close to 30-50whp just by going to ITB's, but that is also at 9000rpms.  Worth it?  Well in the Honda market, R&D is no problem, so they offer a kit at $1500-$2000 that bolts in with software for 50whp, and its going to sell...just like it is.



That brings me to another point?  Why is everyone so sure you have to run a stand alone.  Our Bosch Montronic system is pretty adjustable.  I have been playing around with it and I am almost 100% confident with enough fiddling I am going to run my turbo setup off of it.  The problem is that there are so few people willing to play with it.  Other cars running similar systems have crowds of 20k, so its worth it to play around.  If I make a bolt in turbo kit good for 320whp for $5-7k, I would bet I would sell maybe 5.  10 if I was wearing my lucky boxers when I decided to market it.  So is it worth it to me to spend all the time making jigs, making a setup that is completely bolt on, and taking the chance of the liability for 5-10 kits.  Not really...I mean at maybe $1000 profit each, its not.  100 kits, it would already be done.  So I am just going to focus on myself for now, and when I can break my tires loose under WOT in 4th then I will maybe consider making a kit for everyone else <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> .  My point after my completely incoherent ranting is that I don't think a standalone is nessacary.  Our MAF isn't bad, and there is always the 993TT 3.5" to upgrade to or the 928 GTS 4".



If I could get one prototype unit, I would take the responsibility for the software and tuning.  Hell I would do the R&D if there were say 10 confirmed orders with deposits, but I really doubt there would be.  Even if someone could market it under $3k ready to roll.

[right][post="24651"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]







Funny, my biggest market is the K20/K24 RSX TSX engine,

and we are making 330HP at the wheels with a "plenum" manifold that I designed with a mustang 80m/m throttle, all on a 2,5 litre engine,

yes it' revved up pretty good.



As for using the stock ECU and MAF, it won't work as it will become a airflow restriction and will not react fast enough for the ITB's gulp factor.



My most popular intake is the 52m/m K20 RSX intake system, proven to make 280 plus HP at the wheels, fully streetable power, it also passed an emission test at a the SEMA RSX challenge last year the only car to do so within the RSX challenge.



As you stated, you have not pulled your engine apart, the ports in a 968 are approx 48m/m in crossection, the K20 are approx 44m/m.

comparitions came be made there.(my most popular kit 52m/m remember).

The length of the manifold and other things determine throttle sizes,

the farther you are from head the larger you have to go with throttle diameter so as to keep taper within the intake system.



The most popular throttle type is the blade, most economical as well,

linkages are all very well thought out, with the ability to syc all throttles,

with a cable pull.

As for the angle of airflow in to a combustion chamber, thats determined by port and valve geometry, not the out board manifolding



My Honda S2000 50m/m intake system makes approx 45HP at VTEC kickin with 20HP at the top end, a large mid range increase if you ask me,

not just all top end!



The big thing about using ITB's is the new found ability to get gains from other things like cams, headers, compression changes etc.

It opens up a bunch of possibilites, that some of you don't want, I quess.



But hay, what do I know, I just do this for a living.

Just trying to give people an alternative to the humdrum.



LHP www.haywardperformance.com

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[flash]

somehow i knew my intentions would be misread



that's all good - sure, i have my doubts about the results, especially since somebody already tried, but i'd love to see it work - everybody knows i'm the first guy to add stuff to my car to make it faster



it's all really just speculation at this point - like i said, some testing will prove or disprove everything - by all means, have at it



i appluad the effort - it's certainly a huge undertaking - glad it's you though, and not me - my plate is full enough

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[Mark]

I'm interested, but too far away time wise for this. After reading you post about the S2000 last week, I went looking on s2ki and saw some nice stuff there. Great job on that car and if I hadn't sold mine to play with the 968 I'd be a customer now.



The S2000 is a somewhat fair comparison because people talked about the engine being maxed out from the factory, etc just like the talk was about the 968. Only way to get gains was FI, blah,blah,balh. I had seen a couple fo people trying ITBs out on the S2000 about 3-4 years ago but they had massive tuning issues, I'm glad you got that worked out.



You might want to talk to colin at ninemeister.com and see what he ran into on his ITB development for the 968.

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='LHP' date='Jul 27 2006, 09:39 AM']The big thing about using ITB's is the new found ability to get gains from other things like cams, headers, compression changes etc.

It opens up a bunch of possibilites, that some of you don't want, I quess.



LHP www.haywardperformance.com

[right][post="24668"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



This makes sense, and is in line with a statement Pete from RS Barn made awhile back about his header - how it was an "enabler" for other mods. The only way I can see this thing coming to fruition would be if someone were willing to loan their car for the development effort, which would include the purchase of RS Barn's complete exhaust system (header, high flow cat, and cat back), and cams, probably along with his stage 3 head mod. From what I've read about this on this site and on 968.net, this would pretty much be an all-or-nothing effort. In other words, it doesn't seem worth the trouble to create an ITB for anything but a heavily modded engine, from a flow perspective. But this would be a huge undertaking, and with the 968's very limited production numbers, it would take a miracle (and at least $30K in development costs) to pull something like this off.

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[flwbyu]

First, I wanted to say thanks to LHP for considering the 968 for ITB development. It is nice to see other company's interested in improving such a wonderful auto. I can say that the 968 community is definitely interested in improving there cars and debunking the myths that there is no way to get further improvement out of the engine. Costs are always going to be an issue and for others time as well.



I am not quite ready financially or emotionally to start ripping my engine apart yet. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/huh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> However, this is something that I am going to do because I am not satisfied with the stock power of my engine as it is now. I am also nearing the 100k mark so I know that I will need to start checking other issues.



I have already spent a sizeable amount of money on the car and will continue to do so until it is just the way I want it. I know that I am going to be looking into the RS Barn's complete exhaust system (ceramic header, high flow cat, and cat back), cams, stage 3 head mod, etc. I am also considering a turbo or supercharger to the engine as well.



The point is that I know there will be people interested in buying the product if it can actually show gains for a reasonable price.

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[Fox944]

Lance,



I have an ongoing project on my hands. I'm building an All-Motor 968, Once i'm done with everything i've planned thus far...i'm going to explore ITB's. I am a believer...and will take advantage of an ITB set-up when i'm ready to do so.



If no one else shows interest, then we will build a one-off set using my car as the test bed. I will stay in touch with you. Based on what i've seen, you are the best in the business as far as ITB set-ups go.

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[flash]

itbs have been done, but they have been shown to do less than what you think until you REALLY get inside the engine - this is strictly a track thing too - have fun with it, but there are a couple of people who have already done it and found it didn't work on anything resembling a street engine - it sure would get us around the intake pulse timing issues that the dual resonance manifold, while giving us more power, limits what can be done



that being said, what is an "All-Motor 968"? what do you have up your sleeve there?

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[JTOMA]

I would be interested. I am in the process of building an all-motor 968 W2W car.



Engine should be done soon.



LHP/Hawardperformance....Feel free to contact me to discuss...



Jeremie Toma

jeremie.toma@sbcglobal.net

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[TheMirror]

Flash -



All-motor is a term used for engine builds that don't utilize power adders such as forced induction, nitrous, etc.



Its a term with a genesis in the sport compact environment.



Cheers,

-Mirror

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[flash]

ah - i'm clearly too old - we call that normally aspirated, as opposed to "on the bottle" or "blown"

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[RS Barn]

Yikes,

I may go to the ITB's at some point. I would love to have on my new track N/A car I have too many projects without cash to fund .

Could someone with a ton of dough be my friend?

Pete

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[Fox944]

[quote name='flash' post='37662' date='Jun 29 2007, 10:21 PM']ah - i'm clearly too old - we call that normally aspirated, as opposed to "on the bottle" or "blown"[/quote]





yea...All-Motor=naturally aspirated=normally aspirated=no forced induction.



in any event, ITB's were started by someone, but the project was never completed. LH is the man to see for this set-up. There is nothing to lose but time and money....and i'm on a quest. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/cool.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



In any event, it will be a learning experiance for me and the 968 community. And if there are significant power gains, the initial project will be at my expense...and then perhaps others will follow for less money & time.

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