[flash]

lol - yeah - some of the guys here don't follow the law either (thankfully for me this last time) - they risk a HUGE fine though, and the yanking of their certification



as i said, what is today is not what will be tomorrow - they will grandfather back in what is written - the fact that you could remove a cat today does not mean you won't have to put it back on tomorrow - pretty easy to figure it out too - follow the money - all of those shops would love to charge you for getting your car up to snuff



as for what would never fly anywhere, i never thought i would see cities outlaw smoking, but guess what

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[Fox944]

I guess only time will tell what happens in NYS. I know there have been extensive talks about adapting CA emissions here...but that would only effect new cars built, and not older cars such as my 968. As it is now i can get around the not having a CAT issue here (at a certain few shops), but i'd rather be safe then sorry....and not play with fire. Huge fines for not running a cat here (if you get caught @ a check point, etc).

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[LHP]

A few years ago there was a Acura RSX challenge at SEMA,

most cars were turboed and supercharged etc,

The one normally aspired was equipped with my ITB system.

Parts of the challenge, were to dragrace, small roadcourse, etc etc,

but there was an exhaust sniffer for all the cars,

the ONLY car to pass the sniffer was the one equipped with my ITB's.



I'm not saying it was the Calif EPA or whatever doing the tesing,

But a clean exhaust is a possibility.

The car did have a large cat installed,

this car was making approx 270 to 280hp from an approx 2.4 litre engine



LHP

www.haywardperformance.com

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[flash]

that doesn't surprise me - i've always found that a properly tuned performance engine burns cleaner than most - i wish they only used the sniffer to determine whether or not a car passes, and not count the equipment on the car - unfortunately it isn't the case



the laws here don't allow for that kind of equipment change - you can get around some things by going through the BAR and CARB and getting an exemption, but it is a painfully difficult and expensive process, requiring a lot of tests - they subject the car to cold running and hot running conditions, at different speeds, on a dyno - it has to pass under all of their tests - royal pain



i'm not saying that ITBs don't make power or can't run clean - clearly they do - i'm just saying that they will require a lot of tuning to get it right, and you have the uphill battle of first overtaking the 10 or so hp that i think the existing dual resonance manifold makes all by itself



again, please try one out - we would love to see some results - all of us who develpp parts have to do that on our dime, and it is a risk, but such is the nature of a business - any of these things are expensive to develop, and like you are doing, we all try to guage interest first - that is obviously wise - i think there is a market for what you suggest - i just think it will more than likely be in the 944 and race areas, and not street 968s

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[LHP]

[quote name='flash' post='37826' date='Jul 4 2007, 01:49 PM']that doesn't surprise me - i've always found that a properly tuned performance engine burns cleaner than most - i wish they only used the sniffer to determine whether or not a car passes, and not count the equipment on the car - unfortunately it isn't the case



the laws here don't allow for that kind of equipment change - you can get around some things by going through the BAR and CARB and getting an exemption, but it is a painfully difficult and expensive process, requiring a lot of tests - they subject the car to cold running and hot running conditions, at different speeds, on a dyno - it has to pass under all of their tests - royal pain



i'm not saying that ITBs don't make power or can't run clean - clearly they do - i'm just saying that they will require a lot of tuning to get it right, and you have the uphill battle of first overtaking the 10 or so hp that i think the existing dual resonance manifold makes all by itself



again, please try one out - we would love to see some results - all of us who develpp parts have to do that on our dime, and it is a risk, but such is the nature of a business - any of these things are expensive to develop, and like you are doing, we all try to guage interest first - that is obviously wise - i think there is a market for what you suggest - i just think it will more than likely be in the 944 and race areas, and not street 968s[/quote]





I'm not aiming at street 968's just people that want more power than they have now.

The people that have contacted me so far are in to allout race cars.



So if it passes the emissions rules in the persons area that's great,

as it would pass in my area with just dyno and sniffer, no underhood check



And for the 944/ 4 valve cars, how many do you see out there, not many,

they also have smaller ports,

so no cross over from 968 port patterns



If people want this intake system fine, if not,

I move on to more productive stuff that I'm already working on.



Thanks: LHP

www.haywardperformance.com

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[flash]

that's cool - i figured the race guys would be interested



i wasn't suggesting that the 944 was a direct crossover, but would give these guys a better indicator of what to expect - also, there are twice as many S2s out there as 968s, so the 3 liter thing might crossover - the 16 valve 944 adds to that - don't know how many there are out there, but you can bet there are a lot more 944 race cars than 968s



best of luck, and i think you should pursue this - i just think the market is small - i've had to deal with that issue myself when thinking about stuff - it is entirely likely that some of the things i am workng on will never make it past my car - no worries - that won't stop me

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[PJS917]

ITB's have been tried on the 968 over here in the UK without too much success, mainly the cost of further development prohibited a thorough design and build project, when supercharging offered more for less.



I looked into ITB’s last year and again it was cost that stopped me going down the route, but I am sure it is possible, just costly.

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[RS Barn]

Lance,

I plan to try your ITB's at some point. I just need to find money and a resonable stand alone ignition. And more money.

I want to have a hood bubble with stacks hanging out!!!

Pete

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[Cloud9...68]

Let's all make a pact that if anyone on this board wins their state lottery, they donate, say, a minimum of $30K to the development of an ITB (or other worthy mod) for our beloved 968s. I'll go first - "I hereby pledge to donate, oh, what the heck, $50K of my lottery winnings to the development of an ITB, and put any leftover funds into a kitty for additional development for the 968, for the benefit of the 968 Forums Community."



This will be a neat trick, since I haven't bought a lottery ticket in about 10 years. OK, I'll search my ancestry for anyone with the name Gates, Dell, Walton, Buffet, or Slim.



Pete, by the way, the new clutch line (along with new master and slave cylinder), and new brake bias valve, are all in. Nove of the parts were really too difficult to install. Now I just need to bleed everything, but I have all weekend to do that, so I should be in good shape for my upcoming DE. Thanks for getting the parts to me in time.



Andy N

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[LHP]

[quote name='PJS917' post='37936' date='Jul 6 2007, 11:12 AM']ITB's have been tried on the 968 over here in the UK without too much success, mainly the cost of further development prohibited a thorough design and build project, when supercharging offered more for less.



I looked into ITB’s last year and again it was cost that stopped me going down the route, but I am sure it is possible, just costly.[/quote]





The ITB system that was tried in the UK was to small in the manifold and the throttles.



I honestly think the 968 engine has hidden potential,

it's just no one has the customer base to justify the effort.

And it looks like no one wants to buck up,

so I'll move on to other things.



LHP

Haywardperformance.com

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[Mark]

[quote name='RS Barn' post='37945' date='Jul 6 2007, 09:53 PM']Lance,

I plan to try your ITB's at some point. I just need to find money and a resonable stand alone ignition. And more money.

I want to have a hood bubble with stacks hanging out!!!

Pete[/quote]



I've been trying to help you with part of that, I'm bummed I won't see the Firehawk today.

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[Fox944]

[quote name='LHP' post='37949' date='Jul 7 2007, 02:48 AM']The ITB system that was tried in the UK was to small in the manifold and the throttles.



I honestly think the 968 engine has hidden potential,

it's just no one has the customer base to justify the effort.

And it looks like no one wants to buck up,

so I'll move on to other things.



LHP

Haywardperformance.com[/quote]





i will buck up when the time is right for me, as per our phone conversation. This is a modification i want done to my car eventually.



On a side note, if anyone else is interested (i know at least one other person is), please PM me & lets exchange phone #'s. The more people we have in on this, the less it will cost as the development costs will be split.

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[LHP]

[quote name='Fox944' post='37958' date='Jul 7 2007, 07:58 AM']i will buck up when the time is right for me, as per our phone conversation. This is a modification i want done to my car eventually.



On a side note, if anyone else is interested (i know at least one other person is), please PM me & lets exchange phone #'s. The more people we have in on this, the less it will cost as the development costs will be split.[/quote]



Development costs are minimal,

it's casting pattern costs that I would have to deal with.

Without customers to buy systems,

I am having to speculate on this,

and I am not willing to do so.



I have a very good idea of what the engine needs,

as I have designed systems for other companies with good success.



Examples:

NSX 30hp across the rpm band.

S2000 30 to 75 hp depending on other equipment on engine.

S2000 turbo 565hp 370 torque and more if wanted

RSX up to 300 hp depending on equipment

Eagle talon 4G63 turbo, 450 hp+ up, with really good drivability, (large turbo and big cams).

RSX K20/K24 (normally aspired) drag race only, -single throttle system- 365hp at wheels.

RSX K24 turbo drag race, 800hp+ with -single throttle system-.



So, like I say development costs are not the issue.

But the end user would have to use an aftermarket ECU for tuning.



The casting pattern,

I was thinking about would cover a more street usable 52m/m set of throttles,

with the ability to adapt, via some other castings, up to 65m/m taper throttles for allout racing,

But the allout race deal would require removal or relocation of the brake power booster.



And I know this engine can use the larger throttles for allout racing as it has allready been done.



LHP

haywardperformance.com

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[flash]

looking at the examples, and immeditaely discounting the turbos, it looks like 30hp is a real possibility - subtract the 10 or so that the exisiting manifold gives us over the other examples, and you have 20 or so left - nice improvement - what would this cost?

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[flwbyu]

I say we start a pool to collect funds to develop the ITB's providing that there is a reasonable discount to those who helped participate in its initial development costs. Hey, just trying to get the ball rolling. ;-p

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[flash]

lol - ooh - can i do that with some of my projects too? that would be very helpful - until now i have had to spend my own money developing and testing things



i'm not taking pot shots at the idea - i like the idea - i'm just trying to fully understand what the gains are for this particular engine before getting into it - everybody has been very critical in the past of any project that promised power, and the first questions asked were "how much power? - how much money?" - then comes the "what do i give up?" "what complications are there?" - this has happened with turbos, blowers, headers, etc - all valid issues - many projects that worked on other engines, have not worked on this one - trying to get an idea of what can be expected before jumping in is prudent



the answers to those questions will help me decide if it is the right way to go for a project of my own i am considering - i would love to see this work, as it would resolve an issue i think i am going to have with the project - i am potentially a prime candidate, but need to know some specifics first

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[Mark]

[quote name='flash' post='38002' date='Jul 8 2007, 04:49 PM']I am potentially a prime candidate, but need to know some specifics first[/quote]



I know you have a phone- call Lance at 604-467-9213



<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

lol - probably best - been a bit busy lately - phone time has been a premium - i'll slip in a call this week

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[LHP]

[quote name='flash' post='37991' date='Jul 8 2007, 09:45 AM']looking at the examples, and immeditaely discounting the turbos, it looks like 30hp is a real possibility - subtract the 10 or so that the exisiting manifold gives us over the other examples, and you have 20 or so left - nice improvement - what would this cost?[/quote]



The 968 makes whatever power it makes stock with the stock variable length intake manifold,

where are you getting this extra 10hp from?



The big thing about ITB's is the ability to use more agressive cams, compression etc,

which in turn makes more power overall, and still stays very drivable.



Stock intake manifolds with one throttle at one end of the engine will have internal airflow conflicts,

(intake pulse timing).

Unless built to take care of these problems.



But to fit in the engine compartment of a 968,

that will not work.

As the throttle has to be placed in just the right place to counteract these forces.



Going to individual throttles eliminates these problems right off the bat,

and also reduces the volume of air that is under the control of each throttle,

----(increased throttle response)---.

4, 50m/m throttles equal, 1, 100m/m single throttle.

4, 52m/m throttles equal, 1, 104m/m single throttle, etc etc.



Now installing a 100 m/m thottle on a 968 engine would make for a pretty lazy engine.



LHP

Haywardperformance.com

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[flash]

i extrapolated it from the sales literature



it is a dual resonance, not a variable length manifold - they went way out of their way to design the manifold to exactly time the intake pulses to run back through a second time and not collide anywhere - the result is .3bar boost - they made a big deal about this in the sales pitch



.3 bar or 4 lbs boost has to equal some amount of power, and that is what our manifold makes - knowing that the timing (variocam) should make about 10hp, that leaves the remaining 10 or so of the 20 hp increase over the previous 3 liter engine derived from the manifold - this is talked about in the sales literature



without even getting in the project specific question i have, here are a few of the questions i have, that most everybody will ask too:



knowing that most of the issues with exhaust systems working properly on this engine are related to the pulse timing of the intake manifold, what does this mean for us in the way of exhaust? can we now open it up more than we have been able to, without losing torque?



what would this cost?



what programming would we have to do, and are you going to do this for us?



what does this do to injector needs?



what would we expect in power increase on this particular engine?



so, again, while i think this has some real potential, and it might really solve some of my problems, there are some things that need to be known



i'll try to get to the phone call today

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