[RS Barn]

B&B makes their exhaust out of 18 guage .040 thickness vs. 16 guage .065 of RS Barn system

No breaky here!!!

Pete

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[Harvey]

Pros and cons discussion still goes on for B&B vs RS Barn? Good Heavens, from what I've seen, both systems have their strong points and sound good. That said, my stainless B&B is so beautifully polished and with such beautiful welds that it could be displayed in an art exhibit...and probably win an award! Perhaps the RS Barn system can also?



But I do know that the B&B (WITH the resonator) has one of the most beautiful sonorous sounds you could ask for....and when you "step on it" you clearly hear what's going on with the great 968 engine. Plus, when you're on cruise control on the highway, you can still hear the radio. I paid a little bit more for my exhaust and I don't regret it a bit. In over a year and half, it still looks close to new. And the B&B is well known throughout the entire Porsche community.



Would I have a problem with the RS Barn exhaust? None at all. I trust many of you people here to share unbiased experiences with your add-on parts and trust your experience has been good.



Either aftermarket exhaust system is heads above the stock system. I doubt you'd go wrong with either. You can also have a custom exhaust crafted at your local muffler shop that would be half the price (or less), but the conventional pipe steel isn't known for lasting a long time and you never know what kind of sound you're going to get until you pay your money and drive away.



I had a custom exhaust fabricated locally for my 928 but it's way louder than I'd anticipated (but I still like it even if I can't hear the radio and my wife complains about the sound). I decided to live with it until I got my first "noise" ticket then order up a quality set made by someone who understands the Pcars.



Using just jackstands, I removed my old 968 exhaust and the B&B bolted right on quickly and lined up perfectly. I used new bolts and made sure the hangers were still solid.



It sounds like people who have RS Barn exhausts have a similar experience and accolades to share. That's great. We all win.



Like anything, I guess that muffler builders have good days and bad days and a certain percentage may have issues. I think I got a good one. However, if I'd gotton a weld crack, I'd really be pissed and would vote with my checkbook and not buy another product from B&B. I kept my stock exhaust and, if I were to ever sell the car, I could reinstall the stock exhaust in minutes and pretty easily sell the aftermarket piece. Same with aftermarket wheels, radios, etc.



Performance-wise I doubt the differences are very much. What can make a measureable and difficult-to-debate difference is adding better headers, improving the intake breathing, adding a performance chip, improving the suspension for your particular (subjective) application, etc.



However, when it comes to resale time, some aftermarket additions don't really add to your sales price...except for perhaps to the serious enthusiast...of which there are many on this forum. But the average Pcar buyer probably would rather buy a 968 at a lower upfront cost and add their own aftermarket parts as they choose to.



Frankly, the 968 is a great car and sharing our candid experiences on how to make it better for each of our needs is the value of a forum. However if one feels ridiculed or attacked for adding a part or making a change that's not what someone else (or the forum sponsors) like, that would hurt the free and honest expression of the forum.



What about road noise...? It's not as bad with my improved exhaust but it's still too loud. I hate tire noise and have tried many of the popular performance tires. I'm finding that the softer rubber composition seems to be quieter...but high performance is not as good. Like other things, there are compromises.



H2

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[flash]

this is an ongoing project to be sure - i just yanked out the one i had installed 2 weeks ago - yes, that's right - not being one to quit, i just tried yet another one - very nice up top - definite power increase over 6k - big loss in the middle - very easy to see the difference - to date, we have only found 2 mufflers that at least maintain torque - it was also way too loud



i have more testing next week of a system i just installed today - i think i'm pretty close, and dyno tests so far show the best results of anything tested to date - we'll see just how good it is in a few days



there are definitely plusses and minuses to many systems out there - each one has its own strong and weak points - you have to decide for yourself what you want



the main features to consider are (in no particular order) fitment, weight, top end horsepower, low end torque, mid range torque, sound quality and sound level



having now tested more mufflers than i care to admit, and between pete and i we are pretty sure we have tested all of them, i can state with near certainty that any 2.5" "straight though" muffler results in midrange torque loss - 3" is even worse



a couple of the straight through mufflers tested have shown a small increase in upper end horsepower, again though at the expense of mid range torque - the thing to consider though is whether or not you will be running over the 6k rpm necessary to take advantage of it - on a race car, it makes sense - on a street car, maybe not



then again, maybe it doesn't matter, and the tone is all that is important to you - or the look - or the weight savings..............



sound is something that is very subjective - what is sweet to one person's ear, is cacophony to another - i have been chasing that elusive "perfect tone" for 4 years now, both with and without a header - i have yet to nail it perfectly, getting close at times, though having performance suffer when i did, and i have discovered different sounds when it's cold from when it's hot - again, compromises have to me made and priorities set



i've also run into horsepower and flow limitations of some mufflers, having blown the back off of them



some of them resonate - some of them pulse - some buzz - some crack



in each and every case though, when one aspect was improved, another suffered - to get rid of resonance, weight had to be added - to get more top end, mid had to suffer - to get more mid, top end had to suffer - yada yada



it is really up to the individual to establish their priorities, and choose what is best for them



until then, the development continues

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[Harvey]

As you say, a scientific approach with honest and verifiable Dyno numbers will sell product. Seat-of-the-pants responses and personal impressions are misleading and totally subjective based on personal (but vague) preferences. Given the choice of an ugly but proven performance part vs a pretty but unverified performance product, I suspect that most of us would choose the former. I certainly would. I applaud all efforts to make genuine improvements. Solutions looking for a problem to solve don't impress me as much as real data.



My wife brought home some (what I call Voo-doo) "Miracle Food supplements" the other day that are supposed to prevent cancer, arthritis, shingles, and various other unrelated illenesses (and have been "hidden from the general public" by evil doctors and greedy pharmaceutical companies). If it worked, I guess it truly would be a "miracle." I, for one, won't eat stuff picked randomly from the rain forest without seeing the scientific results that it will do more good than harm. Lots of things actually can "cause" cancer rather than prevent it....until someone figure it out.



Being able to choose aftermarket car parts is the same for me....until it's proven to be better than what Porsche made or someone else makes, I'm sticking with the original. Fortunately, some additions have proven to be great replacements and we buy them. Others sit in the corner of the garage.



If the product is truly good and provides advantage, it'll sell itself.



Keep up the good work,



H2

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[flash]

between a few of us, we have dyno tests on everything, as well as real world performance tests - eventually, they will probably all be posted - not any time soon though - but, no relying on the butt-o-meter anymore -



the bottom line is that straight through mufflers, ugly, pretty or otherwise, and regardless of any upper end improvements, lose in the mids, varying in amount from muffler to muffler, but all losing - most people drive in that range, so this is a problem for most - however, as i said, for their own reasons (sound, upper end gains, etc) some don't mind it, which is fine



still not happy enough myself, i'm still playing around, and until i figure it out, i will continue to seek that "perfect" system - on number 8 now and counting

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[94SilverCab]

Hey Harvey and Flash,



I was under the impression that neither RS Barn or B & B exhaust (used solely) claim to add significant performance. Each will reduce weight and add to throttle response.



From everything I have read, the B &B sounds great, but they are more expensive, and have the reputation of weld joints breaking. (Hey, if we all know about it, why don't they???)



I can report no problems with my RS Barn cat back. Personally, I like the sound, which is only slightly "throatier" than stock...and the tip looks great on my car. I am hoping to add RSB header this spring, along with stage 2 chip for superior performance. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Harvey, I can't imagine why you think you would be attacked here for your well thought out and respectful posts (?)



Regards,



Jay

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[rhudeboye]

All this talk about exhaust has got me searching the web for numbers and experiences. In my search I came across this. I know nothing about this system, aside from what I just read on the page. Dyno shows a 3 HP gain. Is this about what the others pull?



Looks like the right thread to share <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> .

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[flash]

agreed - no attacks whatsoever - healthy discussion only



rhudeboye - nice find - forgot where i stuck that one - notice that while a small gain up top, a similar loss in mid range torque



this is typical of straight though mufflers - some are worse

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[rhudeboye]

[quote name='flash' post='47971' date='Feb 22 2008, 01:27 PM']notice that while a small gain up top, a similar loss in mid range torque[/quote]



Yup, noticed that.



The gain over all is so incremental that it appears the bigger advantage is the reduction in weight.

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[Renalicious]

Well that's JUST the muffler, right? So now add headers, a clip, cams, and you have a lot more than that.



Its interesting reading all about the differences between exhausts, I didn't think it was THAT complex. As long as the car doesn't sound like a raspy tin-can ricer I'll be happy.

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[Mark]

[quote name='Harvey' post='47965' date='Feb 22 2008, 01:52 PM']have been "hidden from the general public" by evil doctors and greedy pharmaceutical companies[/quote]

<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

As I heard from a Doctor on another forum on that subject- "Yeah, we hide that stuff from our patients because we don't want to heal people and have people flock to our practice because we don't like money and don't want to be rich, lol"



Hopefully you are healthy and doing OK Harvey.

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[PorscheDude]

[quote name='Renalicious' post='47984' date='Feb 22 2008, 07:09 PM']Well that's JUST the muffler, right? So now add headers, a clip, cams, and you have a lot more than that.



Its interesting reading all about the differences between exhausts, I didn't think it was THAT complex. As long as the car doesn't sound like a raspy tin-can ricer I'll be happy.[/quote]



As has been stated in other threads, this car is very unique in regards to exhaust. Other than weight Porsche pretty much got it right during production.

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