[Cloud9...68]

I guess it all comes down to how serious a threat to our future on this planet climate change brought on by mankind's CO2 emissions represents.  I'm about to say something so radical, so shocking, so unfathomable for a huge percentage of the polulation to comprehend that most will probably immediately and permanently put me on "ignore" status.  Ready?  Here goes:  I trust the experts.  I know, it's unbelievable, but I actually have faith that highly educated and trained professionals in fields like climate science actually know what they're talking about.  For years, there had been an element of uncertainty in the predictions of the seriousness of impending climate change, and I remained pretty skeptical during this time, but as the data has mounted, and the early predictions have been coming true, it really does look like, gasp, the experts were right, and skeptics like me were wrong.  So assuming climate change is real, not a made-up threat or some sort of hoax, all the arguments against anything and everything that will help stave off disaster, like moving away from petroleum burning vehicles and CO2-producing means of generating electricity kind of fall apart.  Yes, electric cars in their current form and with the lapses in the present infrastructure aren't perfect, and I know I'm a hypocrite for not owning one, but what's the alternative?  Keep burning fossil fuels until New York is under 20 feel of water?

 

Has anybody seen the movie "Don't Look Up"?  Very funny biting satire about mankind's tendency to ignore a threat that couldn't be more in our faces.  Change is coming whether we like it or not.  The question is whether it is the kind of change we can control, or the other, much nastier kind.

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[Inkedupfatboy]

Experts - Bah! lol.

 

I take my car to a local European mechanic. Both the Porsche and the Honda. I don't want to go to a dealer for repairs. Electric cars would require that & I would be captive to their fees and whims. I have a 2016 silverado - worst vehicle I have ever owned. I have put more repairs (including a $4000 transmission rebuild before 100K) into it since it was new I can't justify replacing it. I am not sure I want to buy a new truck at over $50K - probably $80K by the time I make up my mind, with my wife retiring soon. I am sure my ridgeline I traded at 225K miles is still on the road.

 

Batteries. Yes recyclable, but mining is expensive and the processing for new and recycled batteries is dangerous and uses toxic chemicals. They have to change the tires on the giant front loaders very frequently because the acid leaking out of the batteries eats the rubber tires. What do those tires cost to produce.

 

I would rather see some strides made in biofuels. I mean everyone eats french fries right? It's taking a waste product and recycling it.

 

 

So if the batteries last an average of 10 years, how to you sell a 10 year old electric car that needs a battery that costs 1/3 to 1/2 of the cars new value? I wouldn't buy it. They can't get chips for current production. I am sure electric cars need a lot of chips.

 

What is the carbon footprint of making everyone ditch the fossil burner they have now to build and sell a new electric to everyone? What does it cost the environment to scrap and rework all these cars to make new Tesla's? Given the recall rate on Tesla's, I wouldn't buy one.

 

How about making cars last longer? How about more spare parts? How about incentives for people to keep the car they have, maintained better, and/or to have them keep them longer? How about new ways to make the internal combustion engine more efficient. Why do cars need to be replaced so often? My wife loves her 2007 element and won't let me buy her a new car. She doesn't want a touch screen. I just replaced all the shocks and struts and the thing rides and drives like new. I am still rocking a Samsung galaxy7. Why do cell phones need replaced every two years - because Verizon wanted to sell you a new phone on that schedule so they could make more money.

 

Do we really need Dodge Hellcats at 800 HP? This is all a very slippery slope. You can make everyone carbon neutral and I am sure that most of the largest manufacturers will still produce enough C02 that our efforts would seem useless.

 

How about getting rid of waste like NASCAR (yes I am sure I offended someone, but do we really need to watch cars drive around in a circle really fast for 4 hours? All the action takes place in the last 4 laps, so make the races 4 laps long) How much fuel and emissions does the racing industry generate. Watching diesel truck pulling, I would say quite a bit.

 

Are all counties equal? Why are you going to force me to buy and drive an electric car I don't want when China is still primarily a coal burning nation? They practically had to turn their industry off to have clean smog free air for the Olympics. What about the ship breaking in Alang? That's pretty wasteful and toxic to the environment. So don't come after me and my gas powered ve-hickle.

 

I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know that forcing me to give up my car in favor of an electric one isn't going to solve all the world's ills and it will for sure complicate my life.

 

This is why I don't post on forums much. I get to rambling...sorry...

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[ds968]

If we reduced the rate of deforestation by just half  in  Brazil ,  Indonesia ,  Russia and  Mexico , we wouldn’t have to ever worry about the CO2 produced by vehicles .  Nothing else we do will even come close to the environmental / atmospheric damage caused by deforestation resulting in unmitigated global warming . In addition to the ecological disaster, depleting and killing the flora and fauna , but that’s a separate issue to the ozone discussion.   However, the forces arguing in favor of progress / development of those lands,  and the need for lumber,  have exponentially more money and thus power and leverage than any group of people who raise awareness to this , regardless of how many scientists support that .   As is always the case ,the  “ follow the money “ adage remains true, alive and well. 

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[Inkedupfatboy]

I know few facts about money.

 

1. People that have money, have it because the don't spend it.

2. Most money is old money.

3. Money goes where money is.

4. Money does what money wants.

5. Money is a jerk.

6. I know I won't live long enough to ever have lots of it.

 

That's it. That's all I know about money.

 

Gotta go get my amazon delivery.

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[Inkedupfatboy]

So answer me this...

If I buy a Tesla and it gets stolen, do I call it an Edison?

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[Cloud9...68]

Similar to the whole Covid situation, there's a lot of misinformation surrounding how much benefit, if any, switching from petroleum powered to electric cars actually has on CO2 emissions.  A lot of the discussion gets sidetracked on things like the impact on local landscapes of lithium mining, the hazards (real or perceived) of battery disposal, how to deal with nuclear waste as nukes make up an increasing share of electricity production, etc.  These are all nontrivial points that need to be addressed, but they are not relevant to the central issue of climate change.  The reality is that even while a substantial percentage of our electricity is generated by burning fossil fuels, the net CO2 emissions rom BEV's are still much less than from ICE's.  Here's an article from the very conservative Forbes organization:

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/03/14/charging-an-electric-vehicle-is-far-cleaner-than-driving-on-gasoline-everywhere-in-america/?sh=3992217971f8 

 

DS968's point about deforestation is valid, but, at least according to this article, worldwide deforestation "only" contributes 10% to worldwide CO2 emissions, which is a lot, but less than the 15% or so contributed by transportation, or the ~25% contributed by electricity production:

 

https://www.rainforest-alliance.org/insi...te-change/

 

It pains my gearhead heart to say it, but moving from ICE's to BEV's is actually one of the easiest, least controversial, least disruptive ways to have a major impact on worldwide CO2 emissions.  Of course there will be a lot of resistance to it, because inkedupfatboy is far from the only person on the planet who doesn't like change, so the most straightforward way to make it happen is for the manufacturers to simply stop making ICE's, which it sounds like most of them will before too long.  This won't happen overnight, which should provide plenty of time to shore up the charging networks.  And with continuing advances in battery technology, charging times should decrease. That will still of course leave millions of ICEs running around for many decades, but I, too hope for a breakthrough in carbon-neutral biofuels that would allow ICEs to continue, if only in limited numbers by "boutique" manufacturers, although I'm not counting on that.   

So answer me this...

If I buy a Tesla and it gets stolen, do I call it an Edison?

That's a good one 

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[Inkedupfatboy]

Well we will have to wait and see. I hate to say this, but this is America and we were founded on choice. I think the majority of folks will stay the current course. I certainly don't want to be forced into having to buy an electric car.

Sorry, I haven't been convinced that if I do buy one, anything will change except I have an electric car. Huge corporations and manufacturers and countries such as China need to cut their emissions. We need to ramp up other tech and smarter recycling. There are lots of things we can do that may go farther in preserving our planet than making everyone buy an electric car. Again, I can't see it working when everyone has to flee Florida for a hurricane and everyone from Miami runs out of juice around Daytona.


This push was started quite a while ago. How many good fixable, usable cars that had worn off their carbon footprint were crushed under Obama's cash for clunkers, because people took a couple hundred bucks now, and took on more dept they didn't need later. The people who are pushing much of this with their new green deals are the ones who will profit from all this. I don't own stock. I won't see a dollar of this. Not us. Having to buy a hybrid or an EV will not benefit me in the least. I alrady have to get into a vehicle every day that I absolutely hate. Musk is having fun filling the sky with space junk for his $500 down, expensive internet. WHAT'S THE CARBON OUTPUT FOR A ROCKET LAUNCH EVERY MONTH? Bezos matched his entire amazon empire carbon output with one launch.

 

Heck I can't even stand the cars that don't have an ignition key and have push to start. What a stupid thing in my book. Change that no one wanted until they were convinced they had to have it.

 

I do a prayer dance in front of my kitchen appliances that they last forever because they are bisque color. Why did the companies decide that black, white and stainless are the only colors of appliances we are allowed to own now. (have you seen the colors they are painting cars now? UGH!) I will have to take them to the body shop and have them painted because I have a kitchen that's not much bigger than a galley kitchen. Black would like like the monolith in 2001. I hate white boxes and stainless can't keep the fingerprints off it. I want the color I want, not the color I am told I have to have. It's 2022 and I am not buying a Model T.

 

This is my problem, being told I don't have a choice. I don't like being backed into a corner.

Personally I am happy I won't live more than another 20 years because I am tired and if this present is any indication of what the future will hold, I don't want to be around.

 

I am going to quit now. I am just getting frustrated. Stay safe everyone. Ciao!

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[Waylander]

Love it, need to remember that $20 comment I have a few uses for it



I think that a good point in that rant is that you need to be reasonable well funded before you can even think about a electric car, and currently have nowhere to go

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[Cloud9...68]

I agree that it's very unlikely that people will band together take the steps that are needed to reduce worldwide CO2 emissions enough to stave off disaster.  There are too many entenched interests in the status quo, and there is no measurable impact from each individual act (like replacing an ICE with a BEV).  Getting back to the "Don't Look Up" movie analogy, it's like there are a billion relatively small comets on a collision course with earth, all expected to hit the planet at the same instant, wiping out all life.  Each of us could buy a rocket launcher to knock out one of the comets, but doing so is expensive, and terribly inconvenient, and besides, what difference does taking down one comet make, when there are another 999,999,999 of them heading our way?  So maybe the solution is to keep buying the most gas-guzzling vehicles we can afford, and driving them as much as possible to bring ourselves to the brink of extinction as quickly as possible, which will force the invention of some sort of geoengineering solution to either neutralize the excess CO2 in the atmosphere, or at least its effects.  The challenge will be doing this without some sort of catastrophic side effects.  Or maybe the climate experts are all wrong about this whole thing...

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[Inkedupfatboy]

It really doesn't matter now. I predict in 20 years give or take we will all be speaking Russian, Spanish, or Mandarin.

Putin just pulled a blitzkrieg and WWIII Just started and we have a moron in the white house. Yup I said it. If I get banned, fine.

Harris doesn't have 2 brain cells that could collide. I bet her butt gets jealous of the crap that comes out of her mouth.

Trump went off the rails just when things were looking good and the democrats politically castrated him, so here we are.

 

I guess it doesn't matter if we buy an electric car or not because we could all could be glowing anytime soon.

Smoke 'em while ya got 'em folks.

 

I'm out...I am going to go pray for that giant asteroid and put my t-rex costume on.

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[Cloud9...68]

Nah... Putin really stepped in it this time.  He's made himself an even bigger pariah on the world stage than he already was.  What does he expect will happen when he achieves whatever twisted goals he has with this invasion?  The occupation of Ukraine will make Afganistan look like an Up With People concert.  He's the one who's screwed, not the rest of the world.

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[Waylander]

I think you might be right, even his own troops dont get it

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[Cloud9...68]

Yeah, if I were Putin right about now, I would be shoring up my contingent of body guards...

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[Waylander]

Lets hope some one does the world a favour and closely followed by the nutter that now runs Belarus



But to get back on topic, had a ride in an Uber today, a Kia Niro all electric,

Considering it cost just shy of £35,000 it was poorly built with shocking bad quality plastics and materials



I would rather buy a very nice Bentley Continental GT and save 5 grand to spend on fuel



And have you seen the price of the Porsche Fast Chargers for home £13,000 installed,

That would fuel all my cars and bikes for the next 15-20 years

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[Cloud9...68]

Those are all valid points.  Batteries are so expensive that electric cars that are within reach for most people tend to skimp in other areas to hold the line on the price.  Petroleum is an incredibly convenient and effective fuel for many reasons, which is why it has become so entrenched in all of our lives, and why it will be so difficult to move away from.  It may well be an insurmountable task to convert to a fuel that reduces CO2 emissions in time to make a difference, especially since climate change still isn't an in-your-face clear and present danger.  It will be interesting to see if attitudes and behaviors change if and when the effects of climate change start to become noticeable, particularly to peoples' pocketbooks.  It's possible this won't happen during the lifetimes of most of us on this forum, though.  Hopefully for our kids and grandkids sakes, the climate experts are all wrong.

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[netopyer]

It really doesn't matter now. I predict in 20 years give or take we will all be speaking Russian, Spanish, or Mandarin.

Putin just pulled a blitzkrieg and WWIII Just started and we have a moron in the white house. Yup I said it. If I get banned, fine.

Harris doesn't have 2 brain cells that could collide. I bet her butt gets jealous of the crap that comes out of her mouth.

Trump went off the rails just when things were looking good and the democrats politically castrated him, so here we are.

 

I guess it doesn't matter if we buy an electric car or not because we could all could be glowing anytime soon.

Smoke 'em while ya got 'em folks.

 

I'm out...I am going to go pray for that giant asteroid and put my t-rex costume on.

so, how is the blitzkrieg and russian/mandarin/spanish speaking looking?

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[ds968]

Sales of electric cars are experiencing a decline ..and gas cars sales are picking up  ( ironically, given the surge in gas prices.. )  I'm sure there are a million and one explanations for the EV sales downturn,  but for the remainder of 2021 anyway. the auto industry seems to be pointing to this trend continuing ..      

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[Cloud9...68]

It will be interesting to see how well received the upcoming flood of new EV models will be.  It wouldn't surprise me if we see something resembling the introduction of the Covid vaccine, where initial demand was strong, but quickly hit a ceiling.  If a huge percentage of the population can't be convinced to get a safe, effective vaccine against a clearly visible and devastating virus, there's no way enough people to make a dent in CO2 emissions to impact a problem that to most people is very remote will be convinced to buy an EV.  

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[ds968]

That makes perfect sense .   

 

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[Rap]

Overall ev sales are reported at 3-4% of overall car sales. They are expensive in a relative manner. Battery replacement is expensive. This cost might come down with technological improvements. They don’t work well in extreme cold. There is currently a dearth of charging capability. That may change. Traveling with them takes an inordinate amount of planning time and stress. Govt subsidies have fueled much of the sales although most companies have reached the subsidy quota. Now we have inflation and gas prices inflicting financial and economic pain on consumers. Electricity and heating costs have skyrocketed. My heating cost is up over  50%. My electrical usage goes down but the cost continues to creep up. New and used car prices are very high relatively speaking and will take not only a larger percentage of a consumers pocketbook but a longer time to pay it off. These are issues that are on the mind  of the average citizen not should I buy an ev and save the planet. I’m for a cleaner planet but I’ve not seen a measured plan that makes sense to me.

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