[ds968]

My friend in SoCal has a BMW 645i which after 160,000 miles still has the original brake pads on and the dealer told him recently he has about 30% left on those. Furthermore, all other components in that car are also original, nothing has been replaced ; no motor mounts, no hoses, no water pump, no belts, no battery, no wires, no park plugs, no fuses, nothing ! I thought the brake pads thing was extraordinary, if not inexplicable at 160 K miles, until this weekend when I learned that a friend who has a Prius with 300,000 miles on it is also still on the original brake pads !! Similarly, nothing has been replaced in all those years and miles except tires. So this brings me to the question WTF is going on with our Porsches where things wear out or fail exponentially faster than what seems like any other cars out there ? Maybe I get the Prius thing , or our Nissans who seem to be bullet proof because they do not have the least bit of stress on any components as do high performance cars, but when thinking of that heavy , and fairly powerful 8 cyl BMW going 160k miles, and still running like a Swiss clock ( I've been a passenger in it many times and can attest to how well it runs ) on its original parts, drives me nuts considering how often we need to change all sorts of stuff on our 968s . What's up with that ?!

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[Cloud9...68]

Your friend's BMW is a freak of nature - BMW's are also notorious for having MANY things wear out in the 80,000 - 100,000 mile range - complete cooling system overhaul, struts, steering rack coupler, their very elaborate crankcase ventilation system, fuel pumps, window regulators, the list goes on and on. Take a peek at any BMW forum, and it will scare you away from ever buying a BMW. Once you take care of this stuff, though, word is that they're good for another 100K without too much trouble. So, for a German high performance car, the 968 probably isn't too far out of the norm.



However, you're right that Japanese brands tend to go on forever with minimal maintenance. Honestly, the Germans, and to a lesser extent the Americans, should be ashamed of themselves, because the Japanese have clearly demonstrated that high performance and fragility don't have to go hand in hand, because it's not only the pedestrian Japanese models that are so relatively trouble-free - the same can be said for models like the 370Z and the Honda S2000. And, interestingly, recent data is showing that the recent Porsche models across their whole line are also remarkably trouble-free, although time will have to tell if this holds true as the mileage builds.

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[MB968]

Poor choice of materials, especially polymers. We did a lot of accelerated life testing in our lab on various vendors products. The best polymers are well engineered for long life under the conditions they see in actual use. My Japanese cars which were of the same decade as my 968 never had a hose or electrical connector, etc. get brittle and fail due to heat or uv, or ...

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[ds968]

The forums are an avenue for dealing with problems, so only those who experience an issue are likely to post anything , which makes me wonder if for every one person who posted any given failure on their car, there are a hundred others whose cars are perfectly fine ..so are my friend's BMW , or the Prius, really the freaks of nature or are they actually in the majority since we only hear about the problems ?

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[Cloud9...68]

It's true that the forums provide a very pessimistic view of the cars' reliability, but it's not just the forums - Consumer Reports and JD Power say pretty much the same thing. Japanese cars are, for the most part, better designed, better built, and use better materials than their European or American counterparts. If they were only as much fun to drive, and not so derned appliance-bland...

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[flash]

brakes lasting that long is NOT A GOOD THING. that means that there is insufficient friction, and the car probably stops much more poorly than it should. brakes are designed to wear out. the friction is supposed to tear away material.



as for other stuff, our car is under-engineered. the parts were designed for a 150hp car that was 400lbs lighter. that means that many of them are subjected to a harsher environment than that for which they are capable. that's porsche though. they love to reuse stuff, and then figure out what can't handle it down the road. then they can introduce a new and "improved" model, and charge more for it.

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[Bulti]

The brakes on the Prius I can imagine... When slowing down with a hybrid you barely use the brakes if in energy-recup mode. But I agree with Flash, like with tires: I hope mine don't last 50.000 miles or so. That means they are probably too hard and not providing much grip. Same with brakepads...



What's the age of the 645 if I may ask?

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[Langley968]

I had an entry level GM car in Brazil about 15 years ago that had brakes that lasted about 150,000 km. My friend had the same car and his brakes lasted 40,000 km. The difference is in driving styles. My friend would constantly speed up when curves were ahead in the road, and then hit the brakes in every curve. Hard on the brakes, hard on the suspension (his shocks also lasted way less than mine) and hard on the passengers! I have a heavy foot, but I always anticipate what is coming up and slow down or downshift accordingly. Driving styles have a lot to do with wear and tear on certain components.

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[flash]

yup - commuting in trafic versus road trips too. then there are those dumb "2 foot drivers" that are constantly stepping on the brakes on the freeway.



still, brakes should not last anywhere near that long. typical is about 30-35k. some go longer. some go shorter. if they last much longer than that, they aren't doing their job

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[ds968]

[quote name='Bulti' timestamp='1404684128' post='159681']

What's the age of the 645 if I may ask?[/quote]



His BMW is either 2005 or 2006...I think...



I may get 100k out of the rotors on tne 968, but I don't think I've ever gotten more than 50k out of the pads before the wear light comes on.

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[biosurfer1]

What about the timing belt? Why is it just about every other model that has one have change intervals 2x, 3x or even 4x longer? I honestly believe if the 944's and 968's came with chains or at least normal longer lasting timing belt they would be much more valuable and coveted.

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[flash]

see my post above regarding under-engineering. i agree about the chain though

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[Eric_Oz_S2]

Because we all thrash our Porsches. I bet if I thrashed my BMW like I do my Porsche things wold start braking quickly. Also, age is often more of a wear factor than mileage.

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[Bulti]

Exactly my point. Also, when they 'underengineered' things, I bet the accountants had something to do with that during that period. With the money problems Porsche had back then...



And doesn't every car manufacturer use the same parts in various models? Even if one model is more powerful than the other? I don't say the 968 couldn't be a better car when launched, but when money starts talking sometimes compromises have to be made.

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[ds968]

Given the prices they charged for the 968 in that era, every damn part in this car should have been made of teflon-coated kevlar, encased in 18k gold plated carbon fiber .

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[flash]

lol - car manufacturers to this kind of thing all the time. i remember another perpetuation of under-engineering that led to a reputation of a car for crashing. it was the 60's era cougar. the car started out as a falcon, then they added more power and more weight and it became a mustang. then they added more weight, and an even larger engine, and it became the cougar. all of this was done without any significant changes to the suspension or brakes, let alone chassis reinforcement.



of course it's fine to use parts in other applications. but, sometimes they don't do enough testing of that part to determine that it isn't up to the job. sometimes they calculate the failure rate, and determine that it is cheaper to deal with that, than to design, tool, and produce a new part.

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[Ryan]

When Porsche came out with their "flagship" 928 you would think they would have done better on the heads as our motors are really like half a 928 V8. All the 16 valve four bangers shared 928 tech with their cam chain and timing belts.

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[MCL968]

I recall the opposite was true for Volvo as the 1800 series evolved. Each time they improved the brakes, the following year the engine would have increased HP. The biggest occurred in 1969 when they introduced the 4 wheel discs, and in 70 they came out with the highest HP motor in the series. I realize this is a rarity, to plan the brakes to stop the car before you increase the HP, but it has happened.



As for the 968, I wonder if there was optimism that better material technology would make a more durable timing available after the engine was designed and built.

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[Bulti]

Maybe we should all buy Toyotas. Japanese rubber doesn't age, their plastics don't get brittle and I've heard the sheet metal is rust free, even their engine blocks do at least last a million miles without a hickup.



Forgive me my sarcasm, but f*ck that.

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[Cloud9...68]

Well. all sarcasm aside, years of data suggests that compared to their European and American counterparts, Japanese cars pretty much behave as you describe. Not every individual instance, of course, but over a statistically valid sample size, they are just plain more reliable. A lot more. The sad thing is that a lot of is a result of their enthusiastic adoption of manufacturing methods recommended by American statisticians such as W. Edwards Deming. He made the same pitch to the American car manufacturers, but they wouldn't listen, because they "already know how to manufacture quality products." What a crock. That attitude nearly put them out of business. The Europeans and Americans are improving for sure, but the gap between them and the Japanese to this day remains pretty large.

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