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DE ing a 968
#81

Congrats! It will be interesting to watch you negotiate this uber-slippery slope. If you're anything like me, it's not gonna be pretty <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/unsure.png" class="smilie" alt="" />
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#82

Thanks. I don't know you Cloud but I am already quickly slipping down the slope. Max slowed me down a little but I will wait to see what his estimate is for what we talked about. Nice drive over but not as tight or quick as my 968. But well sorted and taken care of. Second owner with 16 years of service records and even the tool kit!
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#83

Hopefully not *too* nice, or you won't want to end it's road life and put it to the track.
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#84

My downfall was to eventually get enough seat time, along with some good instruction, that I hit a plateau. Like the addict I had become, I knew I wasn't going to be satisfied with the status quo, which meant I needed something more to keep things interesting. In the short term, that meant turning my car into something that felt more like it belonged on a track, with a goal of racing it, provided I could figure out a way to work out the logistical challenges. But this all leaves a gaping hole one's wallet.
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#85

Tama certainly that is a concern. I hope I'm not deluding myself into believing that the queen will satisfy the nice need. Today in the sun I saw some more things cosmetically that I missed. Can you say swirls? I found the beginning tiny crack in the dash also. So we will see. I'm hoping I don't get blown away with the cost of what I talked about. That's without seats, harness's and cage. Cloud houz this for a slippery slope, sc!
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#86

lol - indeed
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#87

You should come out to the Delaware event at NJMP 5-7 Oct. Great bunch and some serious track time on Friday if you're a solo driver. When I say serious I mean up to 4 hours... 30 mins on 30 mins off.



I'm working on the fixing the nut behind the wheel prior to doing anything else to the car other than safety stuff like seats, belts, extinguisher, etc.
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#88

If the car is finished by then that sounds like a good idea.

I should read first before responding. Still new to this and suspect I'm not qualified for solo yet
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#89

I'm not sure if the instructed sessions are filled for Sat/Sun, but there are always late drops if you get on the waiting list. It's on Thunderbolt and should be a good time. I'd be cool to have another 968 out there. I was the only one at the Jersey Shore event.
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#90

Thunderbolt is on my list of tracks I'd like to run on. Like to get at least one more this season. hope the car is finished by then
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#91

Joel,



Out of curiosity, could you describe your 968 a little? Is it a pure street car, a race car, or something in between? Have you made any modifications to it to make it faster around the track for DE events? If you're not racing it currently, do you plan to in the future? I'm very interested in how other people approach the topic of the desire (or lack of it) to make their cars more capable around the track if they're not actually racing them. On the one hand, it may seem pointless, but on the other, a more capable car is just more fun, imho, even if you're only doing hot laps.



More popcorn, please...
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#92

i may have some interesting input on this.



the car i have here for tuning of the stage 2 SC has a more "track oriented" shock and strut setup, with modest springs. they are the bilsteins. the owner does not really drive the car on the street, due to the feel on the road. he hates it almost as much as i do. he does track it. after a short ride in my car the other day, which i am pretty sure has stiffer springs than his car, he wants to change to the shocks and struts i have on my car. assuming the lengths are right, the springs will remain unchanged. he'll give up nothing in cornering and gain quite a bit in handling, just by getting rid of the non-adjustable gas bilsteins. the jarring and twitching will be done.



don't get me wrong. the bilsteins are capable shocks on the track. they just lack the civility this car demands on the road. if you plan to dual purpose a car, i would not use them without the expectation that some of the things that drew you to the 968 may very well be gone.



the reason for this is the nature of gas and the angular design of our rear suspension. the fronts are not so much of a problem, and gas is not so bad there.



the rear suspension puts the shocks at a steep angle. this means that for the same amount of ride height change, the shock must move more. it's about 40% more. that means that for every bump the shock is trying to absorb, the shaft must travel 40% more than in a vertical orientation (like the struts are). gas shocks have a preload charge, generally about 25lbs. when you rapidly compress that gas, it gets very firm very fast. if the springs are not matched to that rate, the result is jarring and twitching. gas shocks have a fairly narrow window of spring rates for which they are tuned. for a gas shock to work well, you have to be near the upper limit in spring rate. based on how they feel, for the bilsteins, i tend to think that they probably need around 400lbs wheel rate (.56 * coil spring. if you are using the torsion bars it is .56 * coil spring +175). that means you have a REALLY high spring rate for the car. that would make for a really rough ride on the road. reindexing does not help either.



with a hydraulic shock, the motion is more fluid (pardon the pun). the nature of the fluid means that it is harder to push through the valve, and thereby is more progressive in how it absorbs the bumps. this is what makes them superior for road use. while they tend to have a wider window of springs rates for which they can be tuned, they do tend to be more limited in maximum spring rate, as they can be too slow if the springs are too stiff. for example, the maximum spring i can use with my shocks is 600lbs, which results in only 336lbs wheel rate. i found that to be too stiff, and run 500lb springs, which is almost 300lb wheel rate.



due to the power to weight ratio, i tend to think that a smoother but softer car is going to be faster than a stiff one. this is due to weight transfer. a stiff car does not transfer weight as well, and consequently requires more power to push it through a corner than a car that transfers better. if you have limited power, that means you are at a disadvantage. i learned this with the mgb. while the car could hold a corner better with a super stiff suspension, it was actually slower in lap times, because it could not carry the weight through the corner, due to the lack of power. momentum was everything on those cars, and with our power to weight ratio, it is very much the same. i see the mistake of trying to make the 968 do things like a 944 happen a lot. the easily 400lb difference messes that up though.



it's no simple answer, and you have to decide for yourself where you are willing to compromise.
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#93

Would yellow koni's perform that task?
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#94

Flash,



Thanks for the clear, detailed explanation of something I had seen mentioned a lot, but never understood.
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#95

I'm not going to get into too much here but I don't agree with valving interpretation of gas vs oil shock. There are two twpes of gas shocks, decarbon and piston separated. The decarbon has gas pressure introduced to the oil and valving is designed according to this mix. Piston separated like Bilstein only uses gas to put a constant pressure on oil to reduce foaming at higher temperatures. Valving with this system is neither more or less progressive than oil shock-just more consistant over temperature range.

I don't know mix of decarbon style (pretty old now) vs piston style but almost all modern cars use gas shocks.

The Bilstein TC shocks use unique digressive valving (early compression is quite stiff) primarily for turn in on corners. This isn't great for street use, but reduces need for super heavy springs on track. You can run 20% softer spring on track which can be more complient and forgiving.
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#96

actually, the two main types of gas shocks are emulsion and DeCarbon (the latter named after the the french scientist Dr. Christian Bourcier DeCarbon). these are also commonly referred to as twin tube or monotube respectively.



all gas shocks have oil in them.



an emulsion shock is the typical gas charged shock that also has oil in it. it has a low pressure gas charge. the oil and gas are not separated. these can only be installed in one direction. there are different types of gasses used. most use nitrogen, but sometimes freon is used, though it has nothing to do with cooling.



DeCarbon shocks ARE internal floating piston shocks. these are the type that are typically higher performance. they are higher pressure gas charged. they have a floating piston that separates the oil from the gas. this can happen within the shock or in an external reservoir.



the valving in shocks, no matter what type, is to control the cavitation or "foaming" that occurs as the oil heats up. gas can help keep that under control. the trade-off is a less compliant ride, as the gas has a pressure charge that resists initial movement more.



adjustability of shocks helps mitigate the physical property limitations of the medium being used and the design of the shock. all "fixed setting" or non-adjustable shocks, gas or hydraulic, will always present a compromise between ride and performance, but they are the least expensive.



it is true that many modern cars use gas shocks, and they are becoming more and more popular, but many mondern cars still use standard hydraulic shocks. you pretty much have to step up to a sporty or performance car to get gas. even then, that is because they are inexpensive, it is not because they are better. ride quality is still better with hydraulic, but really good ones that can also provide performance are comparatively expensive and far more complicated to use, hence the application of the less expensive and more generic gas shock.



as for any shock reducing the need for spring rate, that is oversimplification. shocks do not provide anything in the way of support of the weight of the car. that is what springs do. shocks only control the spring. it is true that a gas shock will provide a mild boost in spring rate (as can be shown by the shock extending on its own when off the car), but it is very minimal, is a fixed peak force amount, and in no way relates to any proportion to spring rate (it doesn't become higher force because you add a stiffer spring). however, a shock that has better adjustment control can reduce the need for spring, as it can provide a more balanced control of the weight transfer. this is the case regardless of gas or hydraulic design.



here is a quick explanation of twin tube versus monotube:

http://www.kyb.com/parts/monotube.php



here is a pretty decent explanation of shocks and what they do, and the different types:

http://www.monroe.co...Shock-Absorbers
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#97

[quote name='Cloud9...68' timestamp='1344520072' post='130753']As with so many other questions (drug legalization, gun control, tax policy, the meaning of life, etc), definitely no easy answers.[/quote]



What a softball cloud. The answer key is



yes, yes, 0, sex



easy peasey
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#98

Cloud, I agree with you - a more capable car is just more fun to drive - and safer too - even if it's street only. I have the affliction that most of us do here: I MUST modify my suspension, have on every car I've ever owned. In stock form they all just felt way too soft, from my early Integra days, through several M3's (E30 and E36), to the 968 (my first Porsche), which I'm still fiddling with. I want it to corner flatter (added M030 swaybars), turn in quicker (replacing various rubber bushings with stiffer stuff, added D1R braces) and not dive or squat so much under braking and acceleration (still working on it). I agree with Flash's 85% rule, so I'm not going to go too crazy - sharper reflexes on the street is what I'm after, and that ought to serve me fairly well once I get to a DE event.
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#99

[quote name='bombfactory' timestamp='1346883933' post='132196']

Cloud, I agree with you - a more capable car is just more fun to drive - and safer too - even if it's street only. I have the affliction that most of us do here: I MUST modify my suspension, have on every car I've ever owned. In stock form they all just felt way too soft, from my early Integra days, through several M3's (E30 and E36), to the 968 (my first Porsche), which I'm still fiddling with. I want it to corner flatter (added M030 swaybars), turn in quicker (replacing various rubber bushings with stiffer stuff, added D1R braces) and not dive or squat so much under braking and acceleration (still working on it). I agree with Flash's 85% rule, so I'm not going to go too crazy - sharper reflexes on the street is what I'm after, and that ought to serve me fairly well once I get to a DE event.

[/quote]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. Yes, there are plenty of people who drive Civics, VW Golfs, vintage sports cars, and even Ford Fiesta's on the track to their (and their cars') dying days, and they have a blast with them, and that's great. But to me, a car that feels like it belongs on the track is, well, more fun on the track. My ultimate goal is racing (Pablo is my idol), but in the meantime, I want a car that responds to my inputs without a bunch of sway, wallowing, dive, squat, and general wandering around when I'm turning hot laps.
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Bomb, what kind of stiffer bushings are you talking about? Poly? I'm in this process of swapping this and a ton of other stuff. Suggestions welcome!
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