[tamathumper]

Regardless of Porsche's original philosophy, the "Porsche lifestyle" no longer has anything even remotely to do with a small entry fee, in any aspect - be it racing, watches, clothing, parts, or their current line-up of over-priced cars. Just pick up a Panorama for a little insight into the lofty "Porsche lifestyle". Blech. This is probably the last p-car I'll own because I don't buy into that sort of thing.



Don't get me wrong I like gadgets and expensive things and I'll drop some cheddar for bling quicker than some, but not like that. There's too much DB-Factor nowadays in all of it. Look at me, look at me!

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[Dubai944]

Interesting. I never really hear the term DE here in Australia. I always assumed DE events in the States were very strictly controlled with instructors, no timing or overtaing and lots of rules etc, but it sounds like they are mostly just open track days giving people easy access to drive a track. At least here we call that sort of thing general practise days and make participants have a basic motorsport license and acknowledge them as motorsport events with all the risks. Not that it makes them any safer and access is too easy in my opinion, but at least no one is pretending they aren't out there to go as fast as possible.



Presumably there are lots of competitive sprint and time trial type of events in the US you can get involved in without going as far as door to door racing? That would seem to be the best place to go after graduating from basic DE driving?

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[flash]

exactly!

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[Cloud9...68]

There are definitely a lot of broad definitions here, as well as a lot of ways to have fun at the track. I think the term "DE" tends to be used for any kind on non-timed, non-competitive track driving, when in fact there are several variations on this, i.e.



1. The classical instructor-led and monitored DE weekend event

2. Members-only tracks, where members can run laps anytime they want, with all kinds of cars and skill levels on the track at the same time

3. My personal recent activity, namely the practice sessions at the local driving academy that are required prior to taking the test to move on to the next class. Here by definition I'm on the track with drivers of comparable experience and skill level, although the capability of the cars varies greatly. Passing is allowed in certain areas, and there is a lot of desire among the drivers to keep up with/ahead of everybody else in the session while we're honing our skills. So, by Flash's definition, I guess this could be called pseudo-racing.



Then of course there are time trials, go-karts, and a million versions of timed/competitive driving.



After seeing my times plateau at a level that was too slow for me to really be happy with (though they were drastically faster than when I started - by about 8%), I decided to upgrade my car to allow me to keep up with the faster cars as I progressed through the rest of the courses, but since my ultimate goal is to race, I've referred to the rule book frequently as I made the decisions on the mods, and even emailed the regional NASA official for clarification when needed. I figure this will give me the best of all worlds - a car that's fun and fast to use to throughout my education at the academy, that I could also ultimately use when I'm ready for full-out racing, whenever that may be. I hadn't considered options such as renting a race car - if I had known about that, maybe I would have chosen a different path. I guess I could still do that, and put softer springs on the 968 to make it more livable on the street. But for now (if I ever finish the car!) I plan to have a blast while I learn the craft of racing.

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[pmason]

Like someone else, I started with my 84 911 Targa, spent stupid money on it for the track but when I wanted to race I didn't want to race it, I've owned it sense 88. So I narrowed my search down to a 944s2 or 968 (didn't want a turbo) the 968 has some improvements over the s2. Also the PCA E class is the largest class, 34 cars registered for Road America the the Labor Day race weekend. Oh buy one built you will save a lot of money.

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[flash]

fair enough. everybody has their own goals.



my entire point was that, for the purposes of DEs, the setup of a car is irrelevant. you can learn to drive in anything, and in fact, you will probably learn to drive better in a poor handling, underpowered car, where every mistake costs more in lap speed. it forces you to be smooth, which is the key to driving fast. you actually do yourself a disservice by trying to do it in a car that is set up like a race car.



when it comes to practice sessions, one of the worst things you can do is think about the other cars out there. it messes up your rhythm and can easily cause you to upset the car. the ego may want you to go chase somebody down, but the brain needs to engage and tell you to forget about him and focus on your line.



that's why there is a need to break up these DE events into smaller groups, and forbid passing. if somebody is holding up the group, they get flagged off immediately and put into another group, likewise if somebody is faster than the rest.



then, the rest of the stuff just needs to become racing. it's no different than your local softball league. it doesn't have to tally nationally, or mean anything more than who buys the pizza that night. but it will let the event become what it should.



as for buying a car "built", it is more expensive to do it that way, unless you buy a campaigned car with a log book. almost without fail, any car that is set up for fast track days, but not full out racing, is likely going to be some half-assed cobbled together mess of used and tired parts. i would absolutely steer clear of anything like that. it will cost a LOT more to straighten that out than to set up a car from scratch. in 9 years of watching what is for sale out there in 968s, i have yet to see one that would be the exception. by the time somebody sells one that is actually set up right, the stuff is worn out.



i wouldn't start with a garage queen, but i would start with a car that had not been stressed out. buying a race car is different though, and if it has a log book, you can do well. this is because the car was built to specific standards for competition, and adhered to rules, as opposed to a bunch of stuff stuck on a car that somebody thought was cool.



been there done that with british stuff too. learned my lesson. don't buy somebody else's used up tired toy.

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[Rap]

Interestingly enough the DE's I attended where very strict about their rules. The powers to be lit into the group at the Saturday drivers meeting for those who were not following the rules. Such as indiscriminate passing instead of waiting for the signal. These were of course the high powered cars! All in all although there are differences in instructor abilities, most people followed the rules which were for safety. After I spun and hit the wall I had to go to the chief instructor and report what happened. He gruffly told me not to do it again. At a barbecue that evening I got to talking to him and he said that he just didn't want anyone to die on his watch. Fair enough. So perhaps some groups are different. Going into a corner up someone's ass to set up for a pass on the next straightaway was interesting. I also had a late model Targa that would never let me pass. Instructor to blame for that I suppose.

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[Cloud9...68]

Lots of good points. I definitely took my time in letting my driving skills "grow into" my car, but once I got there, I instantly became bored. I have a long way to go before I'm ready for my racing licence (seeing as how I haven't even driven a stick shift car in a year and a half!), and I didn't want to take the rest of the courses in a car that feels slow and sloppy. Am I the only one who feels this way? Sometimes it feels like it.



I understand the point that the type of car you learn on doesn't really matter, but I really feel that my enjoyment will be greatly enhanced tracking a car that corners a lot faster and flatter, and that, by virtue of losing about 200 lb and with a freshly rebuilt engine with a few goodies, will have a little more oomph coming out of the turns. In other words, a car that feels like it really belongs on the track. There, I think that last sentence finally puts together the words I've been groping for to explain my motivation to upgrade my car, even though I'm not quite ready to race it yet. Plus, having a car that's essentially been built (with lots of input from several of the top experts) as a race car (at least per the definition of the semi-stock classes) to use for the courses will give me plenty of time to sort things out for when I'm ready to really go racing.



As far as the cost, one thing I hadn't completely baked into the equation was my ability to sell my stock parts. I've made enough from selling my seats, hood, wheels and tires, along with several miscellaneous items (with many more left to sell) to pay for at least a portion of the upgrades. Definitely an unexpected and pleasant surprise.

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[986boxster1998]

Rap,



A friend is kicking around the idea of selling his '95 cabriolet that I've always had an eye on. If he ends up parting with it I'll have a '93 M030 / LSD220 coupe for sale that might fit the bill; higher mileage but tight engine with no leaks and a few minor cosmetic blemishes. I've also got a '95 Standard Coupe / LSD220 with the airbags removed that has some minor cosmetic defects as well, it's got less then 20,000 miles on a complete engine rebuild. PM me if you would like details on either car.



Thanks,Dan

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[flash]

i don't understand why you think you have a long way to go before getting your racing license. it isn't a phd. i got mine after 2 weekends on the track. you still only have to do 2 driver school weekends, whereupon you get your novice license, and then complete 2 regional races to get your competition license.



just go for it. go play with the big kids

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[Dubai944]

Guarantee you will learn more in your first real race than in a week of track days <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.png" class="smilie" alt="" />



Like, everyone seemed to forget to brake at the first corner and just kept accelerating, so I did too... OMG. haha.

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[Rap]

Dan thanks I will keep it in mind depending on the results of the current car I'm looking at. What does higher mileage mean?

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[Rap]

Tama I agree with your comments on the Porsche lifestyle. It has always amazed me, perhaps I'm either naive or a bit of a rube, but the cost of these cars are just plain expensive. While I've been doing all of this looking The Excellence mag comes and it has a separate edition of a buying guide for Porcshe's. Really a great resource. While these cars have always been somewhat expensive in relative terms, it seems that the cost has lept beyond their historical perspective. I get the cost of all this fancy technology. The guide gives examples of price ranges. My search has been confusing in that many of the prices seem to not only be all over the map, but consistently high. All of these cars seem to have consistent like problems which adds to overall cost. I'm sure many of the more knowledgeable members can chime in here. Although there certainly is just an amazing amount of wealth and those willing to spend it on a Porsche in this country, it still boggles the mind. While I suppose I could afford any of these cars it sure would run contrary to my financial belief system to plunk down $100,000 or more for a car. The money would have to come from somewhere where it is more practically parked. Of course many could argue that this point is somewhat hypocritical considering what I ended spending on my garage. The depreciation sure is different though. So I guess it's just boils down to Porsche marketing products to people they have determined can afford their products!

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[flash]

excellence is really no real measuring tool. their prices are always over-inflated. i think there is a very deliberate effort there to pump up the marque. porsche definitely is very careful to maintain an attitude of "well to do" associated to their cars. i have their marketing stuff for the 968, and they talk about how they shifted down a bit, but still targeted a very specific audience.



fortunately we don't have a 911, and as such, the only real obstacles in price perception that we have to overcome are excellence and die hard pca guys who cling to the idea that the cars are worth more than they are.



it's a double edged sword though. you can get a basic car cheap, but it makes it hard to sell a clean car for what it is really worth.



you should be able to pick up a decent platform for about $8k. then a couple grand of work later and you are out there and running. if you were to try to pick up a car that had stuff on it already, you would have to deal with the seller's perception of the value of those items, which is almost always way beyond reality.

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[tamathumper]

There's a 944 S2 Firehawk for sale in the July Panorama for $30K. Bargain! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.png" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[blau]

http://newyork.craig...3205644944.html



http://chattanooga.craigslist.org/cto/3209102362.html

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[Rap]

Bob while Excellence may inflate the prices, most prices that I have looked at seemed inflated, it does give you a general starting point. Most of the sites I have perused are more expensive than what this guide indicates. In fact prices are so over the map it's difficult to understand!

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[flash]

other than this site, i only look at the "traditional" places (ebay, craig's list, etc). that's where you get a decent read. of course you still need to look at the individual, as you will get the oddball here and there. none of the other sites i have seen have anybody who knows these cars, and as such have no clue as to how they are priced.



in 9 years of watching the prices, excellence has continually been 25-30% higher than the market.

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[pmason]

I agree with flash, starting in a lower hp car will make you a better and smoother driver. I started out racing karts for a few year in the briggs heavy class probably ~18 years ago. Doesn't spin up as fast as a 2 cycle so you learn to be smooth and carry more speed through the corners.

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[flash]

yup - most guys try counting how long they are on the brakes in each turn. when you drive a momentum car, you count how many times you have to hit the brakes in a lap. i found a great challenge in trying not to use the brakes at all, and see what my times were like. it really makes you smooth. it was surprising to see that my times were not all that different either, once i got good at throttle steering.



the moral of the story here is that the thing that needs to be tightened up the most in the car is the loose nut behind the wheel.

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