[Rap]

Thank you!

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[94SilverCab]

That car went to Oregon some time ago...





Jay

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[Rap]

Thanks for ruining my day Jay! Lol

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[MichaelofGF]

I understand the dilemma. I searched for a long time for the "perfect" (to my way of thinking) 968 DE car. Found - and paid too much - for a bone stock '94 M030/<acronym title='Limited Slip Differential'>LSD</acronym> coupe with only 62k miles. Absolutely gorgeous car. Though it could always be tweaked, it met all my expectations on the track. Even though I only do occasional DEs, I now feel it is too nice to risk "breaking". So, I am shopping for a good 914 to do a flat six conversion for DE and AX use. Wonder if Ill make the same mistake with that car when I find it!

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[Rap]

After looking at a 93 coupe yesterday and driving it I was reminded how nice my car is. So while I am looking for a car that doesn't need to be as nice there is no doubt in my mind that to a point I will try to make something look nice. But that will hopefully just entail some good detailing on my part. Price is what I'm trying to follow here so there is room to upgrade as needed. Certainly makes more sense starting lower and working your way up! Being able to drive it to and from an event is where my thought process is at now. The search continues.

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[Dubai944]

I have raced a bunch of Formula cars and higher powered sports and saloon cars over the years. Sure there is no substitute for the raw accuracy of a Formula car, but personally I have fun driving anything, even my clunky old Holden Jackaroo (Isuzu Trooper) through the roundabouts on the way to work <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.png" class="smilie" alt="" />



At DE level you just don't need a lot of power or sophistication to have a fun track car that's satisfying to drive. Having something that is simple, reliable and handles predictably allows you to concentrate on improving and enjoying your driving. Seeing real improvements your driving skills, despite having a basic slowish car can be incredibly satisfying, especially when you start going quicker than those driving something fancier.



I am guessing that if you picked up a cheap (but mechanically sound) NA 944, stripped it out a little and threw on some better shocks, tyres and brake pads you would have something that puts a smile on your face at the track and still felt a lot like the 968 to drive. The less mods the better. If you hit the armco with it you won't loose too much sleep.

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[Rap]

At one point I was looking at 944's but have focused on 968's now because I know them. Certainly I don't need the fastest car as it only seems to go fast on the straightaways. So far I have enjoyed developing better skills and those seem to be more concentrated in corners.

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[JWahlsten]

I liked the 89 944 N/A I had. Although I know you're focused on the 968, they are very similar. I can't say the 89 would have been much cheaper to run either since the engine was a one year only engine. I can tell you unless you're running a spec series, it gets really old sticking your arm out the window on straights just to catch the 'faster' car in the braking zone...



I think a nice light 968 would be an awesome track car. You can make a 'streetable' track car. Like Flash, I am not a big fan of the dual purpose car. I'm at the point where it's getting to be time to go one way or the other. If you're going fast enough to think about it, you really need a cage, HANS, fire system, etc. Best to buy somebody else's project unless you like doing it.

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[tamathumper]

[quote name='JWahlsten' timestamp='1345559421' post='131342']Best to buy somebody else's project unless you like doing it.[/quote]

Amen.

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[JWahlsten]

Tried it have you, Tama?

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[tamathumper]

It's just so universally applicable! Like buying a 2-year-old house with the landscaping done, the deck built, and the appliances installed and sorted, vs. building your own house and having to choose between taupe or tan tile, the grout color, the cabinet wood, the door handles, the paint, the carpet, the hardwood, ...

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[flash]

lol - i have to disagree. i am so sick and tired of sorting out somebody else's mess. it would be one thing if it were done, and done the way i want it. the problem is that it is almost impossible to find anything that way.



following the house analogy, having now spent over $250k on remodeling in the past 3 years, and another $100k in the very near future, and still we will not end up with what we want, we have decided it will be much better to start from scratch, rather than continue to polish turds. we are going to sell this house and build one the way we want it. the future remodel work is specifically designed to sell the house, and not necessarily what we would want. it will be nicer while we are here, but still not as nice as what we want.



i would do the same thing with a track car. start with a bare chassis, or a bone stock runner, and go from there. picking up somebody else's project is almost always more expensive at the onset, and ultimately you usually end up reworking a lot of what they have done, resulting in an increased cost, and more time down than if you had just started from scratch and set it up all at once.



while buying something that has "some" of the things you might want, or something close to that, might seem at the onset to be a wise choice, ultimately you are settling for somebody else's idea of what is right, and done that way for their own reasons, often due to budget. that never bodes well for a track car.



in rap's case, he has the luxury of time and space, as well as the facility in which to do many of the things that need to be done.



if you can find one that is fully set up, that's fine, but i would never pick up an unfinished project car and expect to be happy.

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[JWahlsten]

Flash understood. I think if you're just getting into the habit, and can find a fairly well setup car, you're still better off with someone else's work as a basis. As long as the basics are good (cage, suspension, seats) you can save some serious coin.



Will things need to be changed? Maybe, maybe not. If someone has what you want, it's certainly cheaper to buy a complete car as mods and race mods go for $.50 on the dollar if the seller is lucky.

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[tamathumper]

Exactly. You can buy a 2-year-old house with the all that stuff done for the same price as building your own and then having to do all that on top of it. And what you want is always a trade-off between your dreams and your bank account.

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[flash]

perhaps somebody else might be able to, i have yet to find a car with what i want. on top of that, i hate having to go in and figure out what somebody else did, and then figure out if i like it or not.



it's also cheaper initially to go in at stock, find out how you drive, and what things will work with that, and then develop the car the best way to suit your style.



if you already have something in the car, you may be reluctant to change it, because you paid more for it than if you had gotten the car without it, and then you might be continually fighting something that never should have been there in the first place.



if you buy a car with a cage, but never plan to race, you have added weight and cost and have no real advantage.



we have to remember that DE is DRIVER EDUCATION. it is not competition. you do DEs until you want to race, or merely to go out for some laughs. it's not supposed to be the end itself. setting up a car like a race car for DEs is just plain dumb. strip some stuff out, add a couple of safety items, and run the car. there is really nothing needed beyond that. if you find yourself adding more than that, you need to be racing.

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[Cloud9...68]

Interesting discussion. I'm glad someone (Flash) is in support of the path I took, which flies in the face othe conventional wisdom of buying a completed track car. While it is insanely time-consuming, doing it on your own does allow you to custom tailor the mods to fit your particular needs. And doing all the work yourself like I've done saves enough money to make it competitive with buying an already-prepped car.



But I disagree with the notion that a DE car shouldn't be every bit as capable as a full race car. Just the opposite seems to be the case, because in competitive racing, you usually have a very restrictive set of rules to contend with, while with a non-competitive track day car, the sky's the limit. Witness rlips' soon-to-be 480 hp, 2600 lb V8-powered DE-dedicated 968. And while track day events aren't "competitive" in the true sense of the word, I completely agree with Joel about waving cars ahead to pass getting real old real quick.



It all depends on your personality. If you're the type who derives great pleasure from competing against others, nothing short of wheel-to-wheel racing will satisfy you. But if like me, the most exciting thing you've ever done is, wait, come to think about it, I can't think of anything I've ever done that comes close to meeting anybody's standard of "exciting", just being on the same track with a bunch of very fast, high-dollar cars is quite a rush.

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[flash]

DEs are much more restrictive than racing. they also fail to do something that should be done. they fail to equalize the pack. in racing, cars are pitted equally against each other (or as much as is feasible). in DEs you get cars of all types in the same group. this makes for a mess, and is exactly why they don't allow passing everywhere, and place limitations on how you can drive.



driver education is just that. it's to teach you how to drive and/or teach you your car. after that, it's just automotive masturbation. sure, it can be good for a couple of giggles to take your car out onto the track, but it isn't competitive, you can't drive full out, you can't even pass like you can in racing. if you're worried about bending the car, drive pca, where they won't let you swap paint. otherwise, man up and get your license and get out there.



in a DE car, beyond some safety equipment, nothing much in the car setup is of concern. when you start worrying about the setup in your car, you've learned how to drive, and what your car does, and it's time to move up to racing. you can race in almost any class you want, and set the car up according to that class. if the disparate structure of DEs are not bothering you, then winning is clearly not the issue for you, and there is no reason not to race. the cars are safer, as are the drivers. you will drive faster, and have more fun.



do DEs for sure. learn to drive. learn your car. then take off the training wheels and get out there. street stock, IT, whatever, but get out there.

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[Cloud9...68]

Flash,



I edited my last post since your latest post. I don't understand what you mean about DEs being restrictive. Other than passing a safety inspection, anything goes, as far as I can tell. Also, I'm lumping DEs together with other types of track days, which include lapping sessions at members-only tracks, and the practice sessions that my local driving academy requires to prepare for the tests you have to pass to move on to the next class.



Your last post kind of makes my point about the different needs of different personality types. Obviously, you're the type who needs the thrill of wheel-to-wheel racing to get your juices flowing on the track, and that's great. But others may get all the adrenaline rush they need from keeping ahead of a Cayman in their lowly 968 at a DE event. Also, while I whole-heartedly agree that racing is probably the most fun it's possible to have with your clothes on (and I definitely plan to do it eventually), the logistics and expense associated with it make it prohibitive for a lot of people, so it isn't necessarily as simple as moving up to competitive racing once you've made it to the top group of the DE ladder.



As a case in point, my very first DE instructor told me he never did competitive racing, because challenging himself to continue to improve his skills (he drives a Viper) is enough of a thrill for him. As with so many things that have been discussed on this great forum, there's no one right answer that works for everybody.

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[flash]

the restrictions are not in setup. they are restrictive in how you drive.



your second paragraph is proof of my point. if you like the rush of keeping ahead of somebody, or matching up against another car or driver, you are RACING, trophy or not, and that has no place in driver education. whether you knew it or not, you are already racing. get your license and get out there for real, and quit yanking your norton.



if you don't want to actually race, but you still want to drive on the track, then you should be renting test time at the track, and just measure yourself against the stopwatch, and quit contributing to factors that endanger other drivers. under no circumstances should you be out there with other drivers trying to learn how to drive, and trying to stay ahead of one, catch one, or pass one, in some form of personal competition. that is exactly the one thing you are not supposed to be doing, and something that every organization has to agree not to allow in order to maintain their event insurance.



this is a very common problem, and exactly why insurance is so expensive.



i am getting involved in a movement now that is focused on redefining and restructuring DEs to eliminate passing and other things that lead to competition in what is a school situation. it will force organizations to make the run groups smaller, and more closely matched, using many of the same tools that racing bodies use to separate cars. by eliminating these adrenaline inspired temptations, the schools can do their job of instructing better, and get these drivers out there racing like they should be.



i have no problem with club events that allow passing and such, but they need to call it like it is. it is a race. it is not a DE.



this will also remove the burdon on the automobile insurance companies, who continually get scammed by people who file claims for accidents that happen on the track during "driver education" that were actually things that happened because somebody was out there effectively racing.



the expense to race does not have to be anything more than gas and a small entry fee. that's how it used to be. that is what porsche built its philosophy on. they wanted to build a car that you could drive to work during the week, and then out on the track on the weekend. for that, you need no setup, no special gear, and therefore no added expense. street stock.



it's a slippery slope though, because i promise you that the first time you race will be the last time you bother with a DE.



so, i go back to a DE car and its setup. you are only out there to learn how to drive. you could be in a bone stock yugo, and still learn to drive. there is absolutely no need for aerodynamics, power increases, stiff suspensions, or any of that for a learning course. in fact, you will learn far more easily on a soft rolling car than on anything else. it is far more important to drive smoothly on a track in a minivan than in a miata.

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[Rap]

Anyone want to talk about legalizing dope? Lol. Lively topic eh gents? Flash is right in that I have the time and space. I also have a desire to learn to drive better. The DE's I have attended do have the super cars and some like to go as fast as they can. On the straights. Corners seem to be somewhat different. Now granted I'm not in the upper run groups so I'm not sure of the fact that they are slower in the corners. Since I'm so new to this it seems premature to jump right into a race car. Seems prudent to see if I'm even capable of progressing to where that is contemplated. I scared the s*** out of myself and got so lucky at the Glen. How many people spin hit the wall and dont damage their car? Only fols like me! Made me realize several points. One, that I had a good learning curve ahead of me. Two, that I should have more safety equipment installed. Three, it was dumb to ruin a really nice car. Now I ain't the sharpest tool in the box but these occurred to me after I hit the wall and sat down and contemplated continuing. I did continue , got over the scare learned and got incrementally better. Inch wise! Lol so street legal sounds like a good start with the same mods I've put into my current car plus I suspect some tire and chassis tweeks. Open for suggestions.

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