[RS Barn]

Valving controls how fast the shock piston travels in either direction (not foaming of oil ). Generally compression damping is 50% of rebound.

Valving can dramatically alter required spring rate on race car. It doesn't replace springs but slows the polar movement of car in corners similar to stiffer springs.

Back to the assumption that hydraulic shocks have more progressive damping than a gas shock, Not true. Damping only slows motion of shock and doesn't absorb bumps unless there are advanced bleeds and blow off functions included in very expensive racing dampers.

Bob also has low friction rear suspension bushings on his car which also reduces the jarring and twitching a more race orientated shock can produce on the street. The stock rubber bushings have a built in preload that react badly when compressed and unloaded.

So there isn't a single or simple solution to street and DE capable components for your car without a bunch of other mods. And even then there are limitations.

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[flash]

your mixing up of terms makes this more difficult than it meeds to be.



shocks are dampers. damping is what shocks do. it is the only thing shocks do. any change in spring rate from a gas charged shock is minimal and only as a result of the pressure charge. all shocks do is slow down the spring and prevent it from cycling.



changing of valving does not change the need for any particular spring rate. that is determined by the weight of the car, the various centers of gravity, the roll centers of the suspension, and the desired attitude of the car in a corner. all valving changes can do is alter the frequency and amplitude of the spring movement. if changing valving is resulting in a spring rate change, then you have the wrong valving design (wrong shock) for the springs on that car, whatever car it is.



we are also not talking about a race car. the thread is about a DE car. DE is NOT racing.



on that note though, it should pretty obvious to most people that this is not a great car for racing. sure, people do it (heck, they race pickup trucks too) and while there are some truly odd ducks out there that want to race this car (for that matter i know a guy who races a 2CV), and you have to love them for being that special, but it's a bit like bringing a mule to a horse race. you can buy the best saddle, feed it the best food, give it the best training and the lightest shoes, but in the end, it's still a mule. that's why you pretty much only see them in pca events. it's kind of like the special olympics for cars. you do see a couple of them doing well in other areas, but i tend to think that it's the driver and not the car at play, and that the particular driver could do almost as well in a shopping cart.



as for the bushings in my car, that is irrelevant. i am not talking about my car. none of this has anything to do with my car, but as long as we are on the subject, you have it exactly backwards. i tried other shocks on my car (bilsteins, konis, and kybs), and it was actually worse. as it turns out, the rubber bushings actually help dampen the gas charge effect, as they provide some resistance to that. this is a double edged sword. spherical bushings can allow the shocks to move very fast and be very responsive, but they also transmit more impact force. rubber is a bit more forgiving.



the bilsteins that i have experienced in the cars that i know that have them have been some of the worst road feel i have come across. without exception, those who have bought them regret it or have complained about them, in varying degrees from minor nuisance to wanting them out of the car. i tried them and i could not wait to get out of the car. i gave them away at a swap meet. maybe i'm old and cranky. maybe i'm spoiled. maybe i've just driven what a properly sprung and shocked car should feel like.



the konis yellows really aren't any better, but they are cheap.



the kw's i've heard owners talk about seem to be pretty much the same.



the problem is availability of a really good shock. even the ones i have aren't perfect, and i don't have high hopes for the life expectancy, based on having to replace them recently due to squeaking, which was the fluid moving so fast internally that it made a noise. they aren't particularly cheap either.



by the way, for anybody else reading, i don't sell shocks, won't sell shocks (other than my hand-me-downs), nor do i have any deals with any shock companies, nor have i received any free shocks. so, i have no vested interest in any choice. i drive the car, feel the ride, and make the choice. i let others drive it, feel the ride, and let them make their choice.



so, you have to decide what's important to you, and balance ride quality against response rate against your budget. i choose to have the car stable, and let the suspension do what it is supposed to do, which is keep the body of the car in as close to the same orientation as possible, while absorbing and adapting to the changing loads. i choose to set the car up for what i do with it 85% of the time.



everybody else can do what they want.



i am happy to help point anybody to the countless resources to support what i have been saying.



again, this is all pretty simple stuff to find and very easy to read about. the shock companies are all pretty good about putting this information out there.

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[RS Barn]

You did bring your car into this DE thread (long post#91). Unfortunately you tell everyone how bad any suspension option is but yours. I will and can say your car rides great and corners very well on the street. It is really what the MO30 should have been like..Possibly a bit firmer than avg Joe would like but avg Joe wouldn't opt for MO30 package.

Until you offer a complete suspension package like yours, DE guys are limited to what's available and need to decide how good a daily ride they are willing to put up with.

As a 15 year PCA Driving instructor I've driven or rode in every possible 944 to 968 supension there is. All have a level of comfort or compromise bordering on scary (My Firehawk as it was raced in 95).

To go back quite a few steps, I would suggest any beginning 968 DE driver starts with virtually stock car(needs MO30 sways) and learns to drive on a few tracks. If you only drive onetrack you learn to compensate for softness,body roll and grip only there. You may end up feeling car is fine being soft. Eventually as your skill and speed picks up, you will start wanting to firm it up.

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[flash]

post #91 is by cloud



post #92 is talking about a different car, not mine. i only made the reference to mine regarding hydraulic behavior. it really could have been any car.



i said essentially the same thing about availability and decisions in the above post



i also said the same thing about starting out with an essentially stock car

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[JWahlsten]

Okay, I leave for a day and all hell breaks loose...



To answer Clouds question which led to the whole conflagration, my car is essentially a street car, and is not in the plan to be a full race car. If I go racing next year which I am working toward, I will likely go back to a normally aspirated 944 N/A to run with the 944 Cup guys. I like the series, and have some friends in the series already. I will try to find a well setup car to begin with, or I will have someone put in the cage so I can build one.



As far as mods go, I have done very little to the car to make it less streetable. I've talked with both Pete and Bob about suspensions and have decided to stick with what I have until going full race or not, or until I can't stand the body roll any longer. My current setup is Koni yellows (944 turbo setup so no helpers on the rear), M030 sways with delrin bushings, top and bottom braces for the front suspension (D1R), sway bar braced to the frame rails, D1R Chassis Brace, RS Barn header, chip, airbox mod, Hawk Pads (HT-10) and Nitto NT-01s. The stock car already had the <acronym title='Limited Slip Differential'>LSD</acronym> and sport seats, so I've been using that combo. The seats are coming out tonight, and a set of 996 GT3 seats are going in. I already have them, so I might as well have a firmer connection with the car as it is seeing more track time lately.



All in all, the car is a good DE car, and handles well. I was deadset on getting a stiffer suspension, but the bracing up front made it work really well delaying the purchase. So, like I said, I am going to leave it as is for now. I will do major maintenance over the winter to make sure it's solid, but I don't see needing to get too deep into making changes. If I want to be the slow guy in the fast car, I can take the turbo out (it's faster and has Motons which I really like)... I am going to get more negative camber added when I have the car tech inspected this time as well. I've found I need more like -2.0/-1.75. I'll basically take whatever they can give me.



My philosophy on this is it's DE. It's learning, NOT RACING... Is it frustrating to be out on the track with guys with 400hp and spend most of your time giving a passing signal, sometimes. My goal is to get back to being smooth, hit my marks, and be the fast guy in the slow car. The 968 is a great learning tool for that in my opinion. Fire suit on...

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[JWahlsten]

To clarify my maintenance intentions are preventative in nature, and not required because the car requires it. I'm planning on the head gasket, rod bearings, belts, wheel bearings, and doing the wiring I've had sitting around for the better part of two years.

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[Cloud9...68]

Thanks, Joel - good info. To add my experience, I went from being the slow (slowest!) guy in a slow car to, after MANY hours of seat time until things started clicking, a fast (for a still a relative beginner) guy in a slow car, and that became tiresome to me. So, recognizing that I hardly drive the car on the street, so ride comfort is virtually a non-issue, I went completely nuts with the suspension - torsion bar delete, Racers Edge solid/spherical bushings everywhere, RE camber plates, mega-dollar Moton Clubsports, 1000 lb coils in the back, 700 lb up front, 18 x 8.5" Enkei NT-03 wheels up front, 18 x 10's in the back, D1R strut and castor brace, front sway bar (M030) braced to the frame rail, solid steering rack bushing, planning to start with Hankook Ventus R-S3-Z222's (top-rated non-race tire by Grassroots Motorsports), and will start with a weld-in partial roll cage. The car came with a Guard torque-biasing diff, and I'm well on my way toward taking about 200 lbs out of the car, including going with Pete's 18 lb Motorsport flywheel. I did all this from advice from people who race these cars, primarily Karl Poeltl of Racers Edge, and Pete. I know the car will ride like a cement truck (but the city of Austin just re-paved all the roads in the areas where I do 99% of my driving!), but hopefully it will be OK to just get me to and from the track. We'll see how happy I am with the outcome - I have zero experience with this stuff, so there may be a lot of tweaking to do. My plan is to use the car to take the remaining classes at the local driving academy and then, budget permitting, try my hand at racing. It's beyond the point of no return of ever going back to primarily being a street car.



Flash, I don't understand your comment that 968's make terrible race cars. Compared to a formula car, of course, but this site is filled with examples of people who've done incredibly well in 968's in their class, and not just in PCA, and even compared to cars in higher classes. I agree that NO street car is competitive with a purpose-built race car, but properly set-up 968s seem to hold their own quite well against all manner of BMWs, Mitsubishi Evos, Nissans, and other comparable cars. Yes, the 968 is on the heavy side for a race car, but no more so that a BMW 3 Series, a Corvette, Evo, Nissan Z, etc. In fact, it's lighter than all of those. Do you mean 968's make uniquely poor race cars, compared to other production cars? If so, what do you consider a good production-based race car?

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[bombfactory]

>>>

Bomb, what kind of stiffer bushings are you talking about? Poly? I'm in this process of swapping this and a ton of other stuff. Suggestions welcome!

<<<



Rap I just replaced my front delrin inner swaybar bushings (they were making huge clunking noises) with some urethane ones - bought off eBay of all places. Also replaced some relatively fresh rubber steering rack bushings with urethane ones, on the recommendation of Blau. All is quiet now and with every little step I can feel improvement in my steering.



On the rear bar I've installed Racer's Edge delrin inner mounts and their heim-joint solid drop-links - Flash says these will start to clunk after a while so I'll probably be looking for sturdier versions down the road.



I still need to do the main front control arm bushings and ball joints (no idea how old they are), front wheel bearings and upper strut bearings (after I rob a 7-11 to pay for them). At this point I might consider slightly stiffer springs up front (shocks are freshly rebuilt M030 Konis). Of course all this will require another expensive alignment, so I probably won't get to it til next year.

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[Rap]

I sure seem to start some lively discussions. I hope I don't end up with that Rap! I put the list of mods and preventatives Max is doing on one of these threads. As I said to Bob, holys*** Batman! Costs more than the car and I'm not done. Unlike Cloud at this stage for me I'm in the learning curve. I feel I'm getting close to mastering this stuff. My times have come way down. I can pull my Visa out and give all the pertinent info in just under five seconds. Used to be 10! Lol

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[JWahlsten]

Cloud,



I could see going where you're at with this car. It's really a lot of fun to drive, but when I really start going fast again, I plan on going to a full race car. My comfort level is already rising in the car again, and I've had a car on the roof at this level. My reason to go to race car is all the safety gear. I don't have any desire to say I wish I would've had x in my car to prevent y, or worse. You should be able to drive it on the street with the Motons and those springs. It's amazing how well those shocks deal with high spring rates. My Tubbo (heavy, fat, but fast pig) has 700/900 and I drive it around on the street exclusively right now...



Your car would be a lot of fun to run in the Super Cup class, but around here the 944 guys are just more competitive. I'm pretty sure you'd be legal with a full cage.



Karl is the man, and puts together a great car. You could do much worse asking for advice...

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='JWahlsten' timestamp='1346956807' post='132249']

You should be able to drive it on the street with the Motons and those springs. It's amazing how well those shocks deal with high spring rates. My Tubbo (heavy, fat, but fast pig) has 700/900 and I drive it around on the street exclusively right now...



Karl is the man, and puts together a great car. You could do much worse asking for advice...

[/quote]

That's great to hear - I had assumed it would have a punishing, barely tolerable ride (even for a mostly-track car), so any level of compliance will be icing on the cake. But it's a real blessing that all the major roads within miles of my house are now nearly glass-smooth, so hopefully it won't be too bad. I'm really trying to follow the 85% rule, keeping one eye on the rulebook as I go. But my immediate goal is to raise the fun factor on the car as I continue learning the ropes of this track driving stuff. And Rap, you give me way to much credit - I had just passed my beginner's test at the academy, and was ready to take the intermediate class, when I decided to upgrade my car first. But I still have A TON to learn, starting with re-learning how to drive a stick shift! We're all anxious to hear what you've done with your new car - it's cool that several of us are on similar paths.

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[Rap]

Cloud what is this academy you refer to?

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[Cloud9...68]

http://www.drivewayaustin.com/



I'm still convinced I've died and gone to heaven. This place is 20 miles from my house, and 2.5 miles from where I work. It uses a very progressive (not in the political sense!) approach, in that you start by taking the beginners class, which restricts you to a 0.7 mile, flat, highly technical part of the track. Then you come back for a minimum of 10 (it took me about 15) 20-minute sessions to practice what you've learned, and then take a test. If you pass, you're eligible for the intermediate class, which opens up more of the track, including a mirror-image copy of the corkscrew turn at Laguna Seca, where the emphasis is on learning how to deal with elevation changes. Then you need to do a minimum of 15 session, take a test, then it's on the the advanced class, which opens up the entire track (about 2.5 miles long), including a pair of meandering straights, where the emphasis in on high speed driving. There are other, specialized courses as well, and you can get your racing license through them. The practice sessions are a real blast, and it's great that I can pop over on my lunch hour during the week, when I'm usually the only car on the track, and get a lot of one-on-one time with the instructors who are there. But it's strictly a school - there are no competitive events held there. Hopefully, they'll eventually open the new F1 track for amateur racing. Plus, there's a "country club" type track about 20 miles south of where I live. It's amazinghow tree-hugging Austin has become a race track mecca!

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[flash]

by the way, i'm not ignoring your question. i'm trying to figure out how to answer it in detail, giving the engineering reasoning, without derailing the thread, which is about DE, and not race car setup, as they are 2 VERY different things.

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[Rap]

Cloud what kind of packages do they have for these courses?

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[Cloud9...68]

Not sure what you mean by packages. Their program is described in good detail on their web site, including the pricing. The courses are taught progressively, each class followed by a series of practice sessions, so it really doesn't work unless you either live in Austin, or are able to swing an extended stay. You can either pay for the practice sessions individually, or buy a monthly unlimited pass, and the prices depend on which level you're on. Does this answer your question?

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[Rap]

Having trouble accessing that, which is why I asked!

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[Cloud9...68]

Hmmm... Their web site was down for a few days (causing my heart to stop, thinking they may have gone out of business), but I've been on their site several times over the last few days, so I don't understand why it's not coming up for you. Have you tried just typing www.drivewayaustin.com, instead of trying to access it through my link?

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[Rap]

I guess one has to register before that info is given. I'm somewhat anal about signing info on sites that require this for info. Unless of course I'm mistaken!

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='Rap' timestamp='1347373081' post='132531']

I guess one has to register before that info is given. I'm somewhat anal about signing info on sites that require this for info. Unless of course I'm mistaken!

[/quote]

That's weird. I don't remember ever having to register. They would have no reason to turn away potential customers by making them have to jump through hoops to look into their programs. But, as I said, their approach is based on going back frequently to run practice sessions (I was going an average of about twice a week after I took the beginning class), which, unless you have a few billion frequent flier miles and access to a very cheap place to stay, doesn't make sense unless you live in or very near to Austin.

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