[flash]

there is certainly a balance that has to be achieved, and there is math that can tell you what that is. you have to have enough spring to run the bars, and there is a way of calculating that. also, a certain amount of roll is a good thing. you also don't want ot use the bars as a primary tuning tool, but rather a secondary one. that being said, the M030 bars are fine for a street car, but not stiff enough for this car if you really want to push it, or run significantly stiffer springs, but you have to understand the physics involved, and be able to do the math to figure that out. i did the math, and found, with track speed measurements to verify it, that the stiffer bars i have now balance better than the M030 bars, and provide better exit speed, with less transitional transfer (the car goes faster through tight corners).



the car i have here is a mess. it jumps all over the road, beats the snot out of you for no reason, rolls too much, is unbalanced and unpredictable, and has lost everything that makes the 968 the great car is it. some of the components might be fine if the car was sprung differently, or it was a dedicated track car, but they are completely wrong for a street/DE car. no worries. i'll have it all set right in a couple of days.



rules may be a factor in people setting up cars the way they do. i think a lot is also the blind leading the blind. i went through the same thing with the mg. approaching the car from a clean slate, with no preconceptions, has been very helpful in getting it set up the way i want it, which is retaining as much of the factory ride as possible, but still improving the abilities.

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[RS Barn]

I can only say from running lots of combinations of sways and springs I know what wins Races for us. But I have also driven those combinations and can tell you how they feel on the track. I think at this point I will keep this info quiet. We also record data for cornering speeds, lap times ect.

Your unavailable sways may be great on the street but don't mean didly on the track.







So where are your track speed tests?

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[flash]

i merely have not gone into production on the swaybars yet. if the demand were there, i might do it, but they are a bit pricey for this crowd, and would not be useful to most people. on the other hand, i rather like having the best handling street 968 out there, so exclusivity is fairly cool, and i may just keep them to myself.



as for the data, first off, it is irrelevant as it has no bearing on somebody else's car, as mine is a cab, and in full street trim. second, it was at a track that very few others would drive, so again, nothing useful to anybody else. i don't even like driving that track, but it is in decent proximity, so was easier for testing. third and most importantly, i don't want to get into a pissing match about it, so i wouldn't bring it out anyway.



race car items and setup have little to no bearing on a DE car. this thread is about DE, not about racing. feel free to start your own thread about how to set up a race car, but please do not confuse the issue by discussing race setup in a DE thread. it's apples and oranges.

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[RS Barn]

I'm not sure if you know, but DE is a progressive sport. There are 968 DE cars with drivers and set-ups that are apples and oranges. Most DE drivers want to approach racing speeds and conditions at some point. At least in the last 10 years of instructing that has been my view.

I have tested all of the above and coached drivers from beginners (Pablo) to winning racers (Pablo)and many more. We set the car up according to their skill, the overall use and budget.

There isn't one combination that is perfect for all. Or is there?

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[flash]

DE is NOT a sport, progressive or otherwise, and is now undergoing a nationwide scrutiny with the intended goal of limiting these kinds of events to training only. it is DRIVER EDUCATION, and by definition only a step toward racing. there are those who enjoy merely driving fast, and limit themselves to DE, or utilize them for practice or tuning, but again it is NOT intended in any way to be competitive. there is no winner. there is no competition. encouraging otherwise is irresponsible to say the least, and is unfortunately almost always rooted in somebody making a buck off of the participants.



as for setups, the physics of the car are immutable. however, budget often limits how those physics can be optimized, and hence the setup that is best for the individual can vary, but there is definitely a right and wrong.

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[Cloud9...68]

But there is a huge group of enthusiasts who, for various reasons (proximity to tracks where competitive racing is done, finances, logistical issues associated with storing and transporting a race car, fear of damage to their cars in a wheel-to-wheel situation, or just simply not having particularly competitive personalities) will never race competitively, but greatly enjoy the opportunity to drive their cars at speed on a track a few times a year. For these people, DE has become their activity of choice. What would you propose as an alternative for this large group of people?

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[flash]

absolutely. there should be club events that allow for that. they should NOT be classified as Driver Education events though.



you can rent track time on almost any track. i used to do it all the time.



the problem with DE events is that it sets the stage for a very real liability problem. people try to dance around insurance company limitations by claiming it was a Driver Education session. this results in your insurance rates going up. that loophole needs to be closed. the way to do it is to require an instructor in the car at all times for true Driver Education events. smaller run groups would also help here. no passing whatsoever would be allowed.



then, for those who just want to go out and drive fast, but not actually compete, you have open session events. the participants are at their own risk for damages and injuries though. again, no passing would be allowed. this would eliminate the ego from getting involved, and competition starting. it would require more work on behalf of the organizers, as they would have to do a better job of splitting up the people into smaller groups that are more equally balanced in skill and performance.



there should be a variation of the Solo program created for large tracks. staggered starts would resolve time issues, and it would not be too tough to work through the groups. they do it now at every Solo event. that way you could drive the big track, but not have the risk of wheel to wheel. basically it would be like a qualifying lap.



i still don't understand why you wouldn't just race. the risk factor is not all that different in production class street prepared stuff. it's really not all that dicey until you get way up into the full-on race prepped classes. you would not have to worry about national points standings, if all you wanted to do was go out and run.



there is an answer. it would also allow for everybody to run their car based on how far they want to take it.



when i started racing, you got 4 days of DE. then you got the big "N" on the back of your car and off you went. there was no more DE after that. once you completed 3 races in a year, without incident, you got your racing license. we all did this in pretty much bone stock cars.



i never got close to an incident until i went full race prep. nobody wanted to bend their car, and went out of their way to avoid it. i don't see the problem

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[Rap]

After a careful read of my car insurance policy, real exciting stuff, and then consulting with my agent who went so far at my insistence to call the Insurance company, we realized there was no coverage. DE did nothing to bring it back into coverage. So for each event I buy specific event coverage with specific dollar amounts. After hitting the wall at the Glen and lucking out it sure made sense despite the additional cost. It doesn't change how or where I drive just affords me coverage piece of mind. No I have not had to submit a claim so I have no experience with his. As an ex insurance guy I may be more inclined than most to take this route. Heck it cost me an extra $100 to insure the brace Cloud sent me but again, piece of mind is important to me. The NNJ Porsche region is a stickler for following driving rules and call you out on it if you violate them. Their concern is driver safety. So some groups appropriately try to keep driver abilities segregated and in safe terrain. Course that's no guarantee!

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[flash]

yeah - that varies company to company, and probably state to state too. as an example, AAA covers it here as long as there is no timer.



some organizations are much better than others. we have a good one here, and a really sketchy one. of course the sketchy one is cheaper, but they also have more issues.



there is a solution, but it won't come cheaply. stuff like this shouldn't though. if it did, we would have those danged camry drivers out there clogging things up.

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[Cloud9...68]

I hear what you're saying, and you make a lot of good points. The way "DE" is run around here is that the lower two run groups (the green and the blue) are trulty educational, but after that (the yellow, white, and red groups) the sessions turn into drive-as-fast-as-you-possibly-can-without-actually-calling-it-racing events. I'd say maybe a quarter to a third of the participants in these higher groups are racers honing their skills between races, and the rest are really good, experienced drivers who just want to see how fast they can drive their cars without actually racing.



I don't disagree that people in these higher groups should probably be racing, and personally, that's my ultimate goal as well with my car. But again, there are valid obstacles that keep people from actually racing. In my case, there are three tracks within 20 miles of my house, but one of them is a full-time driving academy, another is a "country club" type track, and the third is the new F1 track. None of these allow competitive amateur racing (at least not yet), so I'd have to drive 100 - 200 miles to the nearest tracks that allow racing. Not insurrmountable, but definitely a major hassle. So, if I want to race my 968, I've got to figure out how to get it to one of these tracks. Yes, I could rent a race car, but renting another car after pouring so much time and money into making the 968 track-worthy makes me cringe. So, my plan is to bide my time, finish taking the courses at the academy, continuing to go this track for practice sessions (which sounds similar to what you used to do), maybe joining the country club track, winning the lottery, then moving to a house with enough land to store a trailer lol.

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[flash]

common problems. i have some of the same ones. i went the other way, and opted not to track the car. i may flip on that in time. i go back and forth. i just have a hard time justifying setting up a dedicated car, and i know i won't be satisfied with a street based car. i've already crossed that bridge, and there is no going back for me.



there is room for all types of track use. it is going to come down to the willingness of somebody to organize the events, acquire the proper things for it, and then manage it so it does not become competitive, and of course the willingness of the participants to pay for it.

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[Cloud9...68]

Maybe part of the problem is that racing has become so "serious," and therefore fairly intimidating, not to mention expensive. "Run what you brung" seems to be be fading into oblivion, other than in the Lemons and Chump Car series. Even Spec Miata cars seem to generally be not cars you'd want to drive much on the street. DE's as they're commonly run today are one of the few avenues that allow people to drive the cars they drive every day at high speed on a track, which may partially explain why the DE concept has morphed beyond its original intent of training and education for prospective racers. Just a theory...

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[Rap]

There are a lot of serious people running their cars. Most of them I've met so far having been doing this for some time. So perhaps if you stay in it long enough one just graduates up to prepared track or race cars with a trailer and a truck with an assortment of tires and tools. There are so many track choices and types of running on a weekly basis that it boggled my mind.

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[JWahlsten]

There is serious money in tracking cars. I'm not even talking about racing, just tracking. If you really want to run in the "red" or typically highest group, you really need to get into some very fast hardware. I'm not saying you need a full racecar, but you pretty much need a GT3 or something equivalent. You can run in black with a 968, but running in red requires some level of commitment to making the car a full on track machine. Well either that or plan on hanging your hand out the window giving constant passing signals. As far as drivers go, there is little difference in the two upper groups. It's really a matter of speed in the cars. The first solo group is likely the most dangerous with the significant differences in abilities, knowledge, experience, and speeds.



That being said, I think if you're into the solo groups and you don't have a car that is some modicum of a track prepped car, you are putting your safety at risk. The speeds in the higher groups may be sub race speeds, but they are certainly not far off. Regardless of what it was like in the past (it is significantly different than when I started doing events in 1994) the landscape has changed with the capabilities of the newer cars. Think what a Boxster Spyder or Cayman R can do, and then step it up to a GT3. Beyond that, you'll see Cup Cars galore if the DE runs prior to or concurrently with a Club Race. All of these cars really need to have seats, harnesses, and roll over protection at a minimum. It's not necessary, but not having it when you come to a sudden stop at a wall will ruin your day.



This isn't wheel to wheel racing and there are only winners if everyone gets to bring their car home in the same condition it went to the track and we all learn something about our passion for driving. Whether or not we spend money on making the car better for the track or not really means little... IMHO.



Oh and I talked with a friend of mine who was doing a number of club races up until last year. He now instructs and drives the pace car for members and instructs for them at NJMP. He put the cost for a weekend of club racing at 3k+... That's in an 80s 911. Imagine the cost for a supported weekend in a Cup Car. That's serious money for a govt employee.



Costs like that keep a lot of folks in DE whether they'd like to join the rolling chess game or not.

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[Cloud9...68]

Joel,



Nice summary. You definitely paint a sobering picture of what it takes to campaign a race car these days, so it makes even more sense why so many people stay in DE, and why DE has strayed so far from its original purpose of teaching people how to become amateur race drivers. The two seem to have blended - the higher DE run groups being comparable to competitive racing a few years ago. And $3K for a weekend - ouch. No can do.



Oh, well; we'll see where this takes me, Rap, and others in our same boat. For me, the first thing is finishing this endless project on my car, and then I'll take it one step at a time, and follow my nose.



By the way, and I know I've repeated this countless times, but Driveway Austin (www.drivewayaustin.com) serves the purpose that DEs apparently used to - its sole mission is to teach people how to become race drivers, though a very systematic, progressive approach. I'm unbelievably lucky to live in the town where they're located.

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[JWahlsten]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but we have to look at what it really takes to race if you want to run competitively. Another friend of mine just spent another 12k on his suspension components and setup. If you want to run at the front it takes serious commitment. Financially and timewise.



It's another reason the spec series are so popular. You can run in the 944s and spec Boxsters for much less than regular PCA Club Racing classes.



I enjoy the driving and camaraderie at DEs. I'd love to go racing, but have another deployment coming up next year making that not an option at least for another season... I'm with you guys. I figure I'll keep improving my skills until I tire of driving on the track, or step it up to the plate to go racing.

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[flash]

racing does not have to be that expensive. daily fees range from $250 to $350 for SCCA. he is probably factoring in tires, brakes, and all that. that stuff is pretty much the same as any other track day.



of course winning is a whole different story.



as for these DE events though, i find real value in those kinds of events, and in fact find them very frustrating. it isn't racing, so i don't get my competitive yayas off. there is too much traffic, so i can't really work on my technique, as i am constantly either in somebody's way, who should be in a different group, or somebody is in my way who should be in a different group. there is not enough flexibility of time to allow for tuning and tweaking. you only get 20-40 minutes, and then you have to wait around. if you don't get your tweaking done in time, you miss your run group. i've come away from those more than once feeling like i wasted my time and money.



on the other hand, i've done it with a group of friends, and had a good time, but i didn't spend a lot of time on the course either. i would generally do one session, just to participate, and call it a day.



i'd rather just rent the track by myself, or with a few friends, for all of that, and go racing if i felt i needed to measure myself. renting the track generally isn't bad during the week. most tracks will let you rent time by the hour. at willow springs, for example, it's about $75 for open testing/tuning time. you can rent the entire big track for $3k for the day, the medium track for $2500, and the small one for $1500.

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[Rap]

Lots of good logic here. My newbie opinion still is that it depends where you are and where you might like to go. I'd like to continue to DE and hone my driving to see if I can increase my abilities. If that occurs then maybe spec racing is something to look at. Certainly as Cloud states cost is a consideration. The money aspect is somewhat disquieting. Already I'm dumbfounded at what I've spent and as I continue to read these threads it reinforces the knowledge that I haven't really touched the tip of this iceberg! A normal DE weekend for me is in the neighborhood of a $1500. It's probably somewhat more! Yet I've enjoyed the driving, checking out a new track and meeting people from all walks of life. Don't get me wrong, I'm doing this for the driving but these aspects add to the overall flavor.

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[flash]

i see the advantages and uses in the beginning groups, with an instructor in the other chair. no question.



given the distance and the fact that you stay overnight, i can see that kind of cost, and that can be daunting. the ones i've done around here, you run up early in the morning, do the event, and go home at the end of the day. $250 including fuel and meals on average for the day. it's a lot easier to deal with

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[Cloud9...68]

Again, lots of good points on a challenging topic. As Flash says, if you want to go racing, a lot (especially from the expense standpoint) depends on the kind of car you want to use. Yes, a spec series is probably the most economical way to go, and I often wonder if I shouldn't have gone that route. But, and I don't know how common my situation is, I was stuck between a rock and a hard place. I bought the 968 six and a half years ago because it met all my needs as a fun yet reasonably practical car, then I got bitten hard by the track bug as a result of starting to do DEs in it. So hard, in fact, that 90% of my enjoyment from the car was coming from my track days. So, my plan was to sell it, and use the proceeds to buy a proper track/race car. But I quickly discovered that a 968 with 115K miles on it, with $7K worth of items uncovered by a <acronym title='pre purchase inspection'>PPI</acronym> (much of it bogus, but it was still something that severely impacted the value of the car), would barely net me the cost of a set of wheels and tires. So, bolstered by all the stories of racing triumphs by our esteemed cadre of 968 racers, I decided to convert my car to a much more track-capable car. But my sizable investment of time and money into this project leaves me pretty committed to the car, which may unfortunately make for a more expensive path in the long run. But I haven't really explored all the options as far as available race classes my car could fit into, so hopefully I'll be able to make it work out in the end. Who know, maybe by the time I'm ready to race, there will be enough of us around to put together a "spec 968" series <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/tongue.png" class="smilie" alt="" />

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