[Chris Vais]

I concur, solar will be an increasing source of energy in the years to come. My homeowners association is encouraging us all to put solar collectors on our roofs. Some resident who have done it are mostly off the net. Most wineries in California are putting solar collectors on top of their barrel houses to offset the cost of air-conditioning them. You are starting to see parking lots, here in California, retrofitted with overhead structures to support solar collectors. The energy that would normally bake the inside of your car is diverted to generating electricity.



My take on alternative energy for cars is that has to be something that is easily adapted to the delivery infrastructure that we already have in place for gasoline and diesel. And that is going to require the cooperation of the oil and gas industry.

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[968Syncro]

Solar panels (PV) has good merit in certain circumstances, but it isn't and will never be a panacea unless the efficiency of those panels is greatly increased or we do something radical like convert our homes to 12 volt DC like boats. Problems are 1. it is intermittent, and 2. the lifetime of panels is not unlimited. Many home owners who installed PV assuming some 15-20 year ROI will be shocked that they will never get a return because by then they will need new PVs! A couple of commercial large scale CSP (Concentrated solar power) plants are currently deployed in the desert -- don't know how cost effective they are today. Keep your eye on "power storage" technologies (batteries for example) since if this technology becomes cost effective then wind and solar will take off like crazy.



Also do not count out nuclear, I met with some investors aggressively creating a new type of nuclear power plant that is about the size of a truck. Not not for the US, but these things will be delivered all over the world, for example in arid seacoasts as a way to power reverse osmosis fresh water systems.

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[craigawoodman]

With the finding of shale oil reserves, most countries have large, exploitable fuel reserves that have been previously ignored.



As for other fuels, simply dumping garbage into landfill can be effective. Over here, they have methane drains into the covered landfill and use it to run power plants. Whilst separation would provide a cleaner and more refined fuel, simply tapping into what is already there has it's benefits.



We had solar panel subsidies over here and lots took them up, but too much solar power into the grid also creates problems with base load generation.



It is complex issue and anyone that promotes a silver bullet single solution has not looked at all of the interdependencies (and issues around current infrastructure and investment).



BMW and Toyota recently announced partnership on a new Supra sports car replacement, BMW will have access to Toyota's hybrid tech and Toyota access to BMW's hydrogen fuel and fuel cell tech. Maybe something can come of this. However, if we replace burning tonnes of carbon with tonnes of water vapour, there will be environmental issues with this as well. Water vapour is also a greenhouse gas.

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[94SilverCab]

So, basically, the best solution would be mass extinction?



When humans get done exploiting the Earth, it will reclaim itself in the (historical) blink of an eye and the Roaches will find what we've left very agreeable.



JMO,



Jay

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[Cloud9...68]

I don't really care what type of fuel comes along as a competitor for gasoline, as long as it's cost effective, as the price of fuel plays such a huge role in the health of our economy. Preferably, it should be a liquid, so I don't think we're going to see natural gas, let alone hydrogen, powered vehicles in any kind of scale for a very long time, if ever.



Biofuels sound like a great option, and I would like nothing better than to see a legitimate competitor for gasoline and diesel in the marketplace, because competition is the one factor that always benefits the consumer, and society as a whole. But I do find it troubling that a very large number of very smart people have been working on alternatives such as biofuels for a very long time, and to date, none of them has emerged as a viable competitor for fossil fuels. If they showed legitimate promise, the oil/energy companies would be all over them, especially as the cost and risk of petroleum exploration continues to escalate.

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[94SilverCab]

Cloud,



I think you've hit the nail on the head. If all known fossil fuel reserves magically disappeared tomorrow the "Energy (Oil)" complanies would be in business the next day selling wood, alcohol, algae, etc...clearly the solution is about cost/benefit. A replacement for our current fuel sources will be found, as required, when the current reserves are depleted to the point that they are no longer an attractive alternative.



Jay

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[Rap]

Cloud, y'all be real careful now ya hear. Dem Obama thugs be hearin you using a word like competition you be in a heap of trouble now.

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='Rap' timestamp='1360007167' post='138345']

Cloud, y'all be real careful now ya hear. Dem Obama thugs be hearin you using a word like competition you be in a heap of trouble now.

[/quote]

Yeah, better start using an alias of my alias <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/ph34r.png" class="smilie" alt="" /> .



Competition is the one magic element that benefits everybody, as long as none of the parties have an unfair advantage. In the field of energy production and delivery, I would think, contrary to what a lot of conspiracy theorists believe, the powers that be have to aggressively pursue any viable alternative to the status quo, both because the payback for cornering the market on a new source of energy is so potentially huge, and because of the risk of turning into dinosaurs if they're beaten to the punch. I remain hopeful that a viable competitor for fossil fuels will emerge, but like many here have expressed, that's probably not going to happen until we're down to our last few drops of dino juice. And at the rate they keep finding the stuff, that could be centuries away.

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[flash]

the only reasons that biofuels have not come into being on a large scale is that those who would make them are forced to work with sources other than garbage, because the government can't figure out how to make a buck on garbage, and the retooling needed for the auto industry, who is opposed to any sort of change. just look at how long it took for them to agree to cut emissions. they still haven't cut them as much as they were supposed to. the oil companies aren't going to allow a replacement for oil any time soon either. they are too heavily invested overseas.



as soon as somebody figures out a way around the lobbyists, the oil companies, and the government, we'll have biofuels.

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[Chris Vais]

There are two kinds of biofuel out there, but they are not produced in the same way. Ethanol is produced by a fermentation process where the fermentable sugars in the plant materials are converted to ethanol. Distillation is the process whereby the concentration of alcohol is increased. The problem with ethanol as a fuel additive/source, even the current E85, is that it cannot be pumped through pipelines like petroleum because it is corrosive to pipelines. Therefore it can only be transported in tanks.



The other biofuel out there is produced from algae. In this process high lipid content green algae are placed in a photo bioreactor with a growth medium (nutrient source). The biomass is increased through photosynthesis, which also consumes CO2 and produces oxygen. When the growth cycle ends the biomass is processed to extract the oily lipids which are then refined into a fuel that is similar to a light distillate fuel such as diesel or jet fuel. Virgin, the USAF and the Navy have all flown aircraft using biofuel. the advantage of this fuel is that it can readily be distributed and marketed using the infrastructure that is already in place.



Household garbage is not a particularly good source of material for fuel production. It needs to be sorted so that everything which cannot be fermented is removed. A better use of garbage might be as biochar. Biochar is charcoal produced by pyrolysis of biomass and is one approach to carbon sequestration, to produce negative carbon dioxide emissions. Biochar can be used to increase soil fertility and increase soil productivity. It may help mitigate global warming via carbon sequestration. It is a stable material that will is capable of enduring in soil for thousands of years.



Therefore, I think that algae based biofuels are probably the best candidate, as do the oil companies, who are already looking at ways to scale up the process to the point where it is a viable alternative. I don't believe that the oil companies have no interest in seeing biofuel be successful. On the contrary, as the cost of extracting fossil fuel increase, the cost gasoline and diesel will increase. I don't believe that the American consumer is prepared to pay what Europeans pay for fuel, so as the price of production increases, you'll begin to see the shift. The US Navy, the biggest consumer of fossil fuel in the government has already committed to congress to purchase more biofuel for ships and aircraft beginning with a 10 million gallon purchase in the next few years. Algae derived fuel is already produced and available in California.



The biofuel process that I was working on the environmental permitting for was a process that would use sanitary wastewater treatment plant effluent as the basic nutrient source to be augmented with CO2 gas. The byproducts were oxygen and clean water in addition to a lipid rich biomass. This process takes sanitary treatment plant wastewater which is otherwise discharged into our rivers and oceans as uses it as a nutrient source. CO2 gas that would normally be released to the atmosphere by certain industrial processes such as oil refineries, can instead be captured and injected into the photo bioreactor where it supports the photosynthesis process. The goal of this experiment was to take wastewater, waste CO2 out of the environment and produce clean fuel, freshwater, and oxygen. The best part of all, it works.

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[jfrahm]

Back on topic, real gas (not E10) is pretty hard to find around here. Within 20 miles all I can get is Mogas 91 from a regional airport. For $4.75 a gallon. Now I'd like to keep some on hand for the 2 stroke tools and generator but it'd be a pain. Are there still places where it's not too hard to find E0?



E15 sounds like it'll make a bad situation worse for small engines and probably some cars as well.

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[Cloud9...68]

Joel,



Yes, pure gasoline is next to impossible to find, at least where I live.



Chris,



Very well written. Although it's not strictly true that ethanol can't be transported through pipes - it is possible, but the pipes need to be designed to deal with the corrosive nature of ethanol. This means that if we were to convert our fuel supply from fossil fuels to ethanol, our entire pipeline system would either have to be modified, to replaced. Either way, it would take an investment of billions of dollars.



The other major drawback of ethanol, regardless of its feed stock, is that it takes a tremendous amount of water to process it - nearly five gallons for every gallon of ethanol produced from corn. Given the far lower yield of cellulosic ethanol, I imagine the water requirement would be even higher. So, producing ethanol from garbage gets around the problem of competition with the food supply, but it still has the water consumption issue.



You make a compelling argument of algae-based biofuel. But again, given how long people have been working on it, I have to wonder how long it will be before it is economically viable. I hope the day is soon, but I'm not holding my breath.

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[968Syncro]

To perhaps add some insight or otherwise stir the pot, I always liked these graphics which really show energy flow in the US. Key point, notice how much energy is lost....



   



   



   

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[tamathumper]

Interesting that 95% of coal energy is "lost" in each graph. Coal must make slippery electrons that are hard to keep in the cables. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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