[968Syncro]

How bad is it? Any comments?



"The fuel industry's American Petroleum Institute tested the 15 percent ethanol gas approved in 2010 and found it gums up fuel systems, prompts "check engine" lights to come on, and messes with fuel gauge readings."



Here is the full article:

http://washingtonexa...article/2520078



"The additional E15 testing, completed this month, has identified an elevated incidence of fuel pump failures, fuel system component swelling, and impairment of fuel measurement systems in some of the vehicles tested. E15 could cause erratic and misleading fuel gauge readings or cause faulty check engine light illuminations. It also could cause critical components to break and stop fuel flow to the engine. Failure of these components could result in breakdowns that leave consumers stranded on busy roads and highways. Fuel system component problems did not develop in the CRC tests when either E10 or E0 was used. It is difficult to precisely calculate how many vehicles E15 could harm. That depends on how widely it is used and other factors. But, given the kinds of vehicles tested, it is safe to say that millions could be impacted."

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[Grandpa#3]

I don't know how the E10 or E15 will work in our cars. I bought a new Husqvarna straight shaft weed/brush eater last year and left the fuel in it, yep E10. I know I should not have done so, but I did. Anyway I went to start it the other day with fresh fuel. It leaked all over the place. I took it apart and all the rubber hoses were mush and seals shot. By pricing parts It is cheaper to just buy a new one than to replace all the rubber, seals and carb. I have not used any "E" junk in my old 944 nor in the 968. My Dodge 3500 has a Cummings Diesel engine so at least I don't have to worry about it, YET. By using our food corn for this junk fuel the price of food and animal feed (I have 5 Horses) has gone out of sight because of the draught. This year it is not going to be any better due to another forecasted draught in the corn belt. I saw the shriveled up corn stalks that used to be 6 feet tall when I was younger. Heck, we even imported corn from S. America this past year. The ships were unloading their corn here in Savanna, GA. and I don't know where else. Our Government is putting the shaft to all our people pushing mandatory requirements to use E10 / E15 in our fuel. Our country is no longer the "Food Basket of the World". Stop and think of ALL the food products that use corn that we consume on a daily basis. I get so P.O. about how our country is being run or should I say Lack Any Action by our So Called Leaders. The House and Senate need to be completely removed, wipe the slate clean and start over. The House is filled with a bunch of self righteous Jerks leading our country down the tubes.



Sorry about the rant

Larry

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[JTP]

I left gas in my motorcycle when I deployed to Iraq. When I returned the seals and filter element was dissolved away and the metal fuel lines in the petcock were corroded away. Ethanol fuel. Now I either drain the fuel or add Stabil.

I've had to use ethanol containing fuels in my 944 and 968 but haven't seen any negative effects yet....

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[DaveN]

Certainly no E anything gets put in my car, not designed for it! It's bad enough we have to worry about the ZDDP disappearing.

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='DaveN' timestamp='1359663484' post='138237']

Certainly no E anything gets put in my car, not designed for it! It's bad enough we have to worry about the ZDDP disappearing.

[/quote]

If only we had the option to choose... All fuels in my area, as far as I know, contain ethanol.

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[flash]

the idea of ethanol is a great one. the problem is that we are using corn, and not our plentiful garbage, to generate it. if we sorted our garbage to isolate starches, like we do to isolate bottles and cans, and had it picked up just like the other things, we could then gather it and use it to make ethanol. it would be nearly free. it also burns cleaner. whether we used it to fuel cars directly, or burned it to make electricity and then powered the cars from that, either way, we would win.



but then we wouldn't make the farmers happy, as we would be cutting their subsidies. we wouldn't make the oil companies happy, as we would be able to replace oil. we wouldn't make the politicians and lawyers happy, as they would then have nothing to argue about and bilk the public out of.

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[kzem1]

I run only ethenal free in my cars and lawnmover.

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[JTP]

It was great when I lived in Alaska, they only sold pure gasoline everywhere. Here in the lower 48 I've noticed nearly everyone sells E10 or E85 or whatever it is.

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[flash]

lol - they are just about to make gas powered lawn mowers illegal here.

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[tamathumper]

Lawns should be illegal.

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1359680524' post='138256']

the idea of ethanol is a great one. the problem is that we are using corn, and not our plentiful garbage, to generate it. if we sorted our garbage to isolate starches, like we do to isolate bottles and cans, and had it picked up just like the other things, we could then gather it and use it to make ethanol. it would be nearly free. it also burns cleaner. whether we used it to fuel cars directly, or burned it to make electricity and then powered the cars from that, either way, we would win.



but then we wouldn't make the farmers happy, as we would be cutting their subsidies. we wouldn't make the oil companies happy, as we would be able to replace oil. we wouldn't make the politicians and lawyers happy, as they would then have nothing to argue about and bilk the public out of.

[/quote]

In the past, I've pooh-pooh'ed this idea as being impractical - too inefficient, too much volume of garbage to transport and process to produce too little fuel, etc. But I ran across this article in the New York Times:



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/14/busine...d=all&_r=0



The gist of it is that several attempts have been made at this, all ending in failure, but some recent innovations in the process hold some promise. Unfortunately, the article doesn't say anything about the expected cost per gallon of the final fuel, but I'm all for anything that increases the supply of fuel. It will be interesting to see how this turns out.

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[flash]

every time we see something about how inefficient or expensive it is, it always has the basis of starting something new, rather than retooling something we already have.



the garbage trucks are already coming to your house. you would do the sorting of the material - zero cost there. stills are not expensive to build, and a whole lot less than refineries. the distribution system, if we were to fuel cars directly, is already in place. zero cost change there, once the storage refit had been done.



we ran the vehicles and generators on the farm/ranch with the garbage that the 6 of us generated. you have to remember that 40% of all produce is thrown away. every farm in the country is like that. then there is the garbage we throw away. that is all fuel for the taking.



one of the problems is that they keep trying to find the most efficient source rather than the most common. once they turn the attention to converting waste, this will make a lot more sense.



it can be done. the key is getting past the oil companies and the politicians

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[94SilverCab]

The best solution I have seen for bio fuels is algae, reproduces very quickly and doesn't endanger the food supply.



JMHO,



Jay

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[flash]

and it's a great substrate for soilent green

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[968Syncro]

[quote name='94SilverCab' timestamp='1359737748' post='138280']

The best solution I have seen for bio fuels is algae, reproduces very quickly and doesn't endanger the food supply.

[/quote]

Unlikely until many years in the future. I spent over 1/2 a year helping to create a new business, studying renewable energy sources; they are not yet cost effective because of the "renewed" attractiveness of carbon based fuels. Eventually we will run out of oil, gas, coal but apparently not for some decades. It is all about cost, that is always the most important consideration when deciding on energy sources.



Consider Craig Venter's discussion (a really smart guy) who has been working on algae startups: The old news was "Milking Oil From Algae? Craig Venter Makes Progress In Exxon-Backed Venture"



But now:

"

“It doesn’t matter what the scientific breakthroughs are, there’s no way to ever beat oil,” Venter said. “In fact, oil’s not even an issue right now because of all the new natural gas discoveries.



“So there’s no way economically for a new fuel made out of renewables to ever be able to compete with something an oil company can do, without sharp federal regulations and a sharp carbon policy that says, you can’t keep just taking carbon out of the ground, burning it and putting it in the atmosphere. Until we do that, there is no biofuel industry.”

"

http://www.utsandieg...s-dead-without/

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[Cloud9...68]

Syncro,



You hit it on the head - it is all about cost competitiveness, and scale. I don't see how it's possible to overtake an industry as entrenched as oil without massive help from the government in the form of subsidies (yes, I know, Big Oil also gets subsidies, but they's peanuts compared to what it would take to change over to an entirely new form of fuel, however promising or attractive), and in a country $16 trillion in debt, that's just not going to happen, at least not on the scale that's going to be needed. It may be short-sighted, but that seems to be the reality of the situation.



That being said, I'm all for continuing to work on improving the efficiency of alternative fuels, because fossil fuels aren't going to be around forever. But I strongly suspect we'll still be driving variants of fossil-fueled vehicles for the remainder of this century, and well into the next one.

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[flash]

we don't really need subsidies, but we do need to cut off the lobbyists and politicians who protect the oil industry. if the playing field were level, this would work.



but, as that is not likely to happen, we are doomed to continue what we are doing, which means that at the rate things are changing, we won't have to worry about it in 40 years, since we will be in an ice age

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[Chris Vais]

Having spent some time over the past couple of years working the environmental permitting issues for algae based biofuel operations I am convinced that from a technological perspective it is feasible. The problem is that a huge investment in infrastructure is required to produce biofuel from algae on a scale to supplement or replace fossil fuel in this country. To produce biofuel from algae in the US would require that bioreactors be located in the southern tier of states where there are the highest number of sunny days and minimal chance of subfreezing temperatures. A steady supple of water is necessary to regulate the temperature in the bioreactors. Abundant water and warm cloudless days don't often occur in the same place in the southwestern US, for example, and it would also mean diverting vast quantities of water away from agricultural and other uses uses. None of this is impossible, it just requires money, time, and political will to accomplish.



In California, we have had ethanol added to our fuel during certain times of the year as an air pollution control measure. I've not noticed any ill effects from this practice on either my Porsche or Audi nor were there any negative effects on the vehicles I have owned in the past.



It is important to remember that even if you are running your automobile on biofuel, you are still emitting gases that contribute to global warming. The real need is to come up with an alternative to combustion of carbon based fuel in any form and that includes burning fossil fuel to produce electricity to run your Chevy Volt on.

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[Cloud9...68]

Flash,



Sorry, completely disagree on the need for subsidies. Converting from a fossil-fuel-based transportation system to one based on cellulosic ethanol from biomass will require unimaginable sums of money, which private industry simply won't invest unless there is a clear and timely ROI.



Chris,



Well said. Even electric cars aren't really "green" until we find a way to produce the electricity without burning something. Solar and wind are pathetic jokes hardly worth mentioning, and nuclear has fallen completely off the map since Fukushima. Doesn't leave us a whole lot of options.

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[flash]

i think you grossly overestimate what it will cost to get going. this is probably due to not using GARBAGE as the source. we have to give up on any idea other than using our refuse. the collection and distribution infrastructure is already in place. there is not a lot that would have to be done. your car can already run on ethanol, (though not as well as one that is designed to). but, we could skip that entire step by going electric on cars, and using the ethanol to generate the power. you can make you, your cars, and your house completely independent of fossil fuels forever for about $40k. currently that is about a wash against fuel and power bills for the average house for 10 years. it's just not that hard.



solar is far from a joke. there are entire commercial buildings here converting to solar power. there is already the technology to make nearly every house free of outside connection. the problem is the initial cost. as it becomes more popular, we'll see those costs go down. it's already starting. the cost has dropped 50% in the last 5 years alone. it won't be long before we can get off the grid.

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