[flash]

there is a very large difference between setting a car up for racing and setting it up for DE stuff. we've had this conversation before though. sooner or later you will either downgrade things a bit to keep it in DE land, or upgrade things and go racing. likely though by then, you will want to move on to a different car, and one that is better suited to track use.



have fun in the meantime.

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[optigolf]

Flash, your opinion/list of 'better suited to track use' cars, Thanks Mark

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[flash]

nothing over 2400# in stock trim, and 2000# in track prep. it's just too much weight to slag around. if you've ever raced a light car (under the weights listed), you'd understand in a hurry that anything else just sucks. even an underpowered old british roadster feels faster, and is often faster per lap.



frankly, i wouldn't screw around with any production street car. i'd at least get into a formula vee. you can pick one up with a log book for less than $10k, and really start having fun. once you've run a few laps in any open wheel car like that, you'll never go back to production cars. a formula vee will cost you less to buy, cost less to operate, go faster around the track, feel a LOT faster, and give you a rush no production car ever can.



but, it's a dedicated purpose car, and many people have to run their street car.

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[optigolf]

I have done open wheeler, Formula 3 in Europe 1976, racing on all major circuits there including the old long Nurburgring, and fully agree what you said about open wheelers. On that time I was young 26 years young and were one of the top guys on F3 type cars in Europe. However if I like to have now some, lets say reasonable good fun, on my older days and do it with 'tincan' like 968, what you on your experience/racing history (which I do not know, but understood that you have done some racing) would like to put on the list of cars to consider. Thanks

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[flash]

i guess i wasn't clear enough. i can't say i could recommend any street based car. i find that to be a complete waste of time and money.



if i absolutely had to track a street based car, i guess a miata might do. you can get those down around 2k#, and can run a supercharged engine and make about 240hp. a lotus super 7 wouldn't be bad either. perhaps a new lotus too. again, the point being VERY light, and somewhere around 8:1 lb/hp

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[optigolf]

Thanks for your thoughts. I was thinking my self a bit more powerful car than Miata, like EVO 9, Subaru STI, Cayman or long those lines. Obviously much more money too. However 'No money No honey'. Lets see. Mark

By the way anybody else has an opinion on cars for track and club racing ? Mark

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[flash]

i'm talking about a supercharged miata. 240hp +.

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[Dubai944]

Lol... Flash, I say this in a bit of jest, but you have brought this up a few times and I think you are just stuck in your own past mate! Just because open wheelers and light weight race cars offer a purer driving experience I find it hard to understand your black and white attitude that says racing anything else is not a worthy experience, is a waste of money and that anything over 2000 pounds in race trim 2400 pound in road trim sucks.





Any number of heavier GT type cars can be an absolute blast to race. Most of the FIA GT1 grid would be crap to drive based on your definition, and even some of the LeMans prototype cars would be too heavy to be a fun drive according to you. My car weighs a porky 2460 pounds in race trim, but it is Cup Car quick and an absolute blast to drive. And no, your underpowered old British roadster is never going to come near any serious race car for track times. Seriously! Maybe you just haven't driven anything decent on a track recently?



I agree with you that open wheelers are are absolutely awesome, having owned and raced a few of them, and i also agree that for someone who just want to get on a track to learn to drive, an open wheeler is a great way to go, maybe better value and better learning experience that tracking a dual purpose 968, but that just does not translate to bigger heavier tintops being no fun and some people just don't want to get in an open wheeler. Take a ride in an Aussie V8 Supercar one day and tell me it's not an awesome driving experience . 3100 pound and a bit of a pig but absolutely a blast to drive and many an open wheel driver aspires to drive in the series.



I suppose it depends what you find fun about track driving. To me racing is fun period, whether you are in a Suzuki Swift, a Ferrari or Formula Ford. It's the competition that excites people whether you are competing against yourself in a track day environment to perfect lap times or running door to door in a series race.



For the DE type of guy the 944/968 platform can be great fun and it also suits certain classes of serious racing perfectly. If you are enjoying it, it's not a waste of money regardless of whether there is theoretically other platforms that can be quicker.

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[Rap]

I think perhaps its the timeline of the perspective. As a new DE driver in a non sc 968 last year and a 968 with a sc this year the difference has been dramatic. Do I still drive a heavy car? Yes of course. But I'm having a blast and slowly increasing my skill levels and comfort level on the track. Do I want to race? Good question. This is a situation that has many questions that would need to be answered. The cost factor and amount of time required to do this are other determining issues. I have already given up golf this season and traveled many weekends since March. So the car selection question while important is just one of many factors to consider. Having a car one can drive to and from the track is an easy way to start. This whole question sits on a slippery slope if one starts to enjoy tracking their car. It's at that point that serious questions about cars and transportation start to intrude and need serious thought. The amount of money I have spent on the car and going to these events adds up quickly. Racing takes a serious commitment of time and money. I've seen Miatas, Coopers and a fair number of Boxsters and I suspect cost was a factor. It depends on what one wants to do and the money they have to spend. I must admit that I did not understand the money issue but this was merely ignorance on my part!

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[optigolf]

Hi Aussie Mate, I fully agree what you wrote. Having been living in Brisbane-Gold Coast area some 20 years before moving to USA some four years ago, I have had good fun with 1988 RX 7 at QLD Race track. Now my case is that having tracked my 968 cab couple of times on DE, I feel that it is not for me, as previous race car driver - I like to race, as you also noted, not watching mirrors all the time, shoving passing signals to much faster (on straights) cars on straight and then they are slowing you down on corners as you are not allowed to pass on corners. Anyhow it suppose to be Drivers Education, in reality it is like racing without real racing rules.That is why I am doing some 'soul searching' - what would be something to use in USA for club and similar racing. I am not going to open wheelers anymore - if I do some racing here, it will be with tintop which can be done on reasonable budget. I still think - regardless of Flash opinion, that well built 968 is a serious contender.

Ok this is a bit personal situation, however somebody else might have similar thoughts and tossing with his thoughts - what to do.

Again anybody has any more on this subject.

By the way I am looking to visit in Gold Coast, where my son is living, in near future so it would be nice to cats up. Mark: e-mail m.wekara@optigolf.us

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[flash]

a minivan will get you to the grocery store the same as a ferrari too. which one would you rather drive?



my entire point is "why compromise?". i don't understand the logic. i don't find any closed car fun to race to begin with. i never did. i never found any street based car nearly as fun as an open wheel car either. it's apples and oranges. there's really fast, and then there's everything else.



i've had the opportunity to drive GTP cars, and you'd be hard pressed to find any hardtop car faster. i did not enjoy them nearly as much as even the smallest platform open wheel car. the isolation from the speed makes it boring by comparison. the extra weight seriously dampens the fun. it's a lot like shooting a 45 and shooting a pellet gun. the pellet gun is a giggle for a minute, but it's not the same and the big boy. perhaps that's why i'm a ragtop man, and don't enjoy a hardtop nearly as much.



i think a lot of this goes to the times. today we just don't have lightweight cars. when i was racing, the average car out there on the track weighed about 2400#, and a lot of them were well below 2000#. now, you can hardly even find one that light. people getting into it today don't even know what a truly light weight car can feel like or what it can do.



we also didn't have "DE" events. that was the first 4 days of track time until you got your license. i still don't understand the point of these events. rent track time? sure. go out and practice? sure. never graduate to racing and stay stuck in DEs? no way. what's the point? it's not at all like racing. if you aren't competing, and pushing the other guy around, blocking him, and forcing your way to the front, it isn't anything like racing. if there is no fear of death, it isn't anything like racing. i guess some people want to drive a little faster than they can on the street, without risk of damage to the car or injury or death. a DE is a better place to do that. i'd rather just rent the track myself, and not be frustrated by those who think they are racing, and those who are just learning how to drive. every time i've done a DE, it has been crowded with those, and hence ruined my fun. the problem is that these are done for profit. they have to get as many cars out there as they can, and they can't break it up into enough groups to separate the novice from the experienced guy from the guy who thinks it's a race. a lot of that is because the "instructors" are guys who are doing it for free track time. that makes for a logistical nightmare, and is exactly why i stopped going to these events.



i understand that not everybody can have a dedicated track toy, if for no other reason than it requires something to get it to the track. but, you don't have to have a trailer to do it. you can get a shifter cart, go faster than any 968, and have a whole lot more fun. you really get the sensation of speed in one of those. you can toss one of those in the back of an SUV. a brand new top of the line cart will cost you less than setting up a bottom of the line 968.



if i want to go racing, i'll buy a race car. if i want to go drive fast in my street car, but not race, i'll rent the track. i'd rather go without than go half way.



i just don't understand the logic of any half way measure, and it's not just about cars. i probably never will. if you want something, go get it. don't compromise. i think going half way is all a big circle jerk, and those who do it are in denial.



but, i also understand that some people enjoy television wrestling. so have fun guys.

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[flash]

to further belabor this, if somebody finds this stuff fun, then they should go do it. i don't. this is all perspective.







to follow up on perspective, and what people enjoy, i've had the privilege of working with some of the best singers in the world. as a result, i can't stand to watch The Voice on tv though, and can't listen to those hacks. millions of people enjoy it though, and i think it's just because they don't know any better.



it's kind of like trying to enjoy sirloin after having had a good filet mignon. or trying to enjoy korbel after having had veuve cliquot.



the list goes on.



my point is that the question was posed as to what i think is a better suited car. the key words there being "I think". i answered the question. many people do not think as i do. many do. it's up to the individual to determine how they have fun, what they enjoy, and what to do about it.

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[optigolf]

Flash,

That is kind of opinion and it's yours. Lucky all are not thinking like that, if they would there would be very little different sports in the world and different opportunities on racing with different cars, like ice racing, which I enjoyed very much with Renault 8 Gordini and achieved several champion chips early 70's in Finland. Ice racing you might not enjoy to much doing with open wheeler, especially when there is outside minus 25 on Celsius.

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[flash]

lol - i think we were typing at the same time.



i agree with you, and have absolutely no problem with people enjoying different things than i do. i have been very lucky, and been afforded opportunities and experiences that many others have not. this unfortunately has spoiled me on the rest though, and i now cannot enjoy those things. perhaps ignorance would have been bliss. i'm not sure. it has pushed me though to succeed so as to be able to afford the better things, so i guess it all works out.



as an example, i'm trying hard right now not to want the yacht i've been yearning for. it would mean working even harder than i do now. i won't go out and buy a smaller one though, as i know how frustrating that would be for me. i'd rather go without.



my grandfather used to say "somebody has to be the garbage man". every time i get into these kinds of conversations, i think back on that. i can't expect everybody to think like i do and want what i do. frankly i don't want them too either. society would crumble if they did.



the other thing that i think about is that if there were not such diversity, i would never have experienced many of the things i have, and would not have any appreciation for them. as a result though, i've got a mountain of debt that others would find crushing. i'm not altogether sure that my way is best.



so, to each his own, and may they enjoy their station in life along the way.

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[Rap]

Station in life? Spoken like a true Republican ! lol I knew it!! lol

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[flash]

roflmao - that's what you got from that???

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[optigolf]

Thanks and all the best. Mark

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[robinlarry]

Back to the original conversation ... on my 944 Turbo S E class race car, I moved to 18" wheels only after I had installed a full spherical racing suspension. Before that, I didn't think I would really get the benefit of the reduced tire profile. A tire IS part of your suspension and the less rubber between you and the road, the better you can feel the track. It made a huge difference IMO.



And if you look at the leading PCA 944 turbo drivers, I expect all are using 18" tires. It's something the rules allow.



For rain and street tires, 17" is fine.

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[Rap]

When your parsing an answer one needs to be selective and look for the hidden meanings. Lol it's ok no worries. Again couldn't resist!

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[flash]

lol - i don't do hidden meanings. if nothing else, i speak my mind and don't mince words.



back to the original topic, 17s, with lower than stock profile tires, will be faster on most tracks. the effective lower gear ratio and lighter weight will make for an effective power increase of about 10%, using a 245-35-17 as an example. the tire is 2 lbs lighter than the stock tire, and 3 lbs lighter than a comparable 18". this is particularly important as it is outer mass, which is much more important than hub mass. you also lose wheel weight with even the stock wheels, compared to all but the most expensive of 18s. the 245-35-17 also has more tread width than the 255-40-17 of stock, while having a lower and therefore stiffer profile. the suspension will also be faster to react, due to the lighter weight.



those guys mentioned earlier are wrong. they just haven't thought it out fully. you can't beat the numbers though. physics is physics.

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