[flash]

EVs are getting very close to that range now.  they have gone from 80km to over 300 in only a couple of years, in average driving.  once you learn how to drive an EV, you can really stretch the range.  it won't be long before they average 500km.  with a high amp charger, you can charge the car in an hour.  we will probably see solar panel roofs become standard too.  the charge that can be accumulated will further extend that range.  fisker was already doing it.

 

i find it ironic that 3rd world countries are adding solar fields at an incredible pace, so as to generate power, yet in the country that has the most resources, it is very slow coming.  politics.

 

by the way, and bringing things back on topic, the tesla model s makes 779hp with 920 lb/ft.  so, maybe 650hp will become the norm, just not in petrol powered cars.

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[Cloud9...68]

Sigh - if it only made any difference.  As long as EVs are effectively primarily coal, natural gas, and oil burners, their impact on the planet or the climate is nil.  And then what about airplanes - I don't see electric jetliners anywhere on the horizon.  I also heard recently that if ocean tankers were a country, they would be the fifth-leading producer of CO2 on the planet.  CO2 reduction schemes for cars and trucks by themselves won't come close to making a difference.

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[flash]

agreed - which is why i said that every house, and every factory and office building roof, should be covered in solar panels.

 

since cows are of the largest contributors to greenhouse gasses, and that the methane produced is 23 to 28 times worse than CO2, we should be using that dung to make biofuel.  they are doing it in 3rd world countries quite successfully.

 

then we really could drive a shitbox of a car, and feel good about it.  of course then we would have to change the power rating system to cowpower.

 

we have choices.  the politicians just won't let it happen as long as it puts more money in their pockets to keep things like they are.

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[Cloud9...68]

All that makes sense, but it amounts to bringing a thumb tack to a knife fight.  If the climate models are correct, we need much stronger medicine.  The only option that would come close to making a difference in time is to start building nuclear plants are a breakneck pace, and shutting down coal, and then natural gas fired plants, as the nukes come online.  In parallel, the switch from petrol to electric cars can happen, and will actually make a difference.  But even this won't be enough without some sort of simultaneous geoengineering solution.

 

The bottom line is that nothing will happen as long as climate change is viewed as a far off, abstract problem, as it is by most people today.  Only when it becomes a here-and-now emergency which threatens the livelihoods and pocketbooks of those with the resources to effect real change will progress be made.

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[flash]

not sure nuclear is the answer, as that brings about its own huge set of environmental issues (like where do we put the waste?) but solar very well could be the right move.  there is enough roof area to provide for enough power generation.

 

stopping the use of coal immediately is definitely a must.

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[Waylander]

Same could be said for the highly poisonous hard to dispose of lithium ion in the batteries


I don't think they are the answer either, just another consortium / world quango to make a few folk a lot of money

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[flash]

true, though once there are enough of them for it to make fiscal sense (translation: once they start really penalizing for dumping them), they will work out how to recycle them, just like they did with the lead/acid batteries.

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[ds968]

Yesterday Telsa shares took a deep dive after the company announced a major reduction in the price of their vehicles, hoping to reverse, or at least mitigate what has been a rock bottom drop in sales orders and projected demand . And when Tesla sneezes, the entire EV industry catches a cold . Below is a contrarian view extracted from a Canadian symposium on the validity and real cost of EVs. Draw your own conclusions, and whether entirely accurate or not , the information is at least thought-provoking .



" Since electric cars do not use gasoline, they do not participate in paying gasoline tax / gallon sold , a measure enacted to help to maintain your roads and bridges. They will use the roads, but will not pay for their maintenance!

Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile has never been discussed. All you ever hear is the mpg in terms of gasoline, with no mention of the cost of electricity.

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power cars, yet it is being shoved down your throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.

A British Columbia Hydro executive was quoted as saying: "If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, you have to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. Many houses are equipped with only 100 amp service. On a small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a Tesla. If even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded."

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Your residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So as your genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are you being urged to buy these things and replace your reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but you will also have to renovate your entire delivery system! This latter "investment" will not be revealed until you're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS!' and a shrug.

We drove a Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and concluded this : Four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. When calculated, the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned. If you pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile. So the gasoline powered car costs about $20,000, while the Volt costs $46,000-plus.. "


I have neither the time, nor interest to check the math described above, but I think the hype and politicized promotion of EVs , have obscured a lot of the realities associated with their ownership and use.


I gleefully predict the demise of EVs within the next five years, and the return to a 650 HP + gas powered vehicles as the new norm :-) ;-)

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[Spokayman]

Yesterday Telsa shares took a deep dive after the company announced a major reduction in the price of their vehicles, hoping to reverse, or at least mitigate what has been a rock bottom drop in sales orders and projected demand . And when Tesla sneezes, the entire EV industry catches a cold . Below is a contrarian view extracted from a Canadian symposium on the validity and real cost of EVs. Draw your own conclusions, and whether entirely accurate or not , the information is at least thought-provoking .

" Since electric cars do not use gasoline, they do not participate in paying gasoline tax / gallon sold , a measure enacted to help to maintain your roads and bridges. They will use the roads, but will not pay for their maintenance!


According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned. If you pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The lack of fair road taxation is one of my biggest pet peeves about electric vehicles. Especially here in Washington State where we have the highest gas tax in the country. This needs to change pronto!


Actually there is a gross error in that calculation in that the cost per kilowatt hour is about 1/10th of the figure used there ($1.16/KWh).

Our cost here is about $.09/Kwh. National average is about $.12/KWh. I think a digit was slipped there.


I too remain pessimistic about an all electrical vehicle future. It would make some sense in the Seattle area, but not in most of the rest of the state. I understand that technology can and will improve range, lower costs, etc. but until that happens, its a difficult sell to the average buyer.

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[Cloud9...68]

As another data point, my younger daughter owned a Volt for a (VERY) short time.  She was under the mistaken impression that her school offered free charging to its students.  She was horrified to discover the actual cost charging her car, and soon started running it solely on gasoline, because she found it to be cheaper, in addition to being vastly more convenient.  She couldn't sell it fast enough.  And yet the entire auto industry appears to be sold on the concept of "electrification".  It will be interesting to see where this ends.  The demand for electric vehicles appears to barely have a pulse, that's for sure.  This will have to change dramatically if they are to have a future.  I get the distinct sense, rightly or wrongly, that the world will continue getting the vast majority of its electricity and power driving its vehicles from fossil fuels for at least the rest of this century, and probably well beyond.

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[flash]

trust me when i say that they will figure out how to tax those cars.  it's a process. first they have to ween the public off of gasoline.

 

don't let the tesla "model" of charging mislead you.  we ran a 220V system for the i3 with absolutely no issues.  besides, there was plenty of rooftop for enough panels to power the entire house AND charge the car.  that is the part you skeptics are missing.  you have to start with the solar panels on every rooftop.  using existing power generation will not work.  once they mandate solar panels, like they have here on any new home, things will change.  then, power will be free.  we are almost free where we live now.  the electrical bill for the month is about $30.  even with an electric car, it wouldn't go up all that much.  solar works.

 

also, charging for 10 hours is based on a 110volt system.  most people use a 220volt system, which cuts the charging time down to less than half that.  a 440volt system takes an hour.

 

regarding range, again, it depends on how you drive.  you have to learn not to use the brakes so much, and let the regeneration feature come into play.  i would regularly get 20% more range than the advertised range of the i3, purely by judicious use of the brakes.  i didn't have to drive like an old lady.  i just had to pay attention.  i could get 40% more if i slowed down to the speed limit.

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[Cloud9...68]

Every debt-strapped American is sure to have $20K worth of ugly solar panels on their roof in no time - definitely by the year 2300 at the very latest...

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[ds968]

Right, placing new taxes on EV cars to make up for the lack of gas taxes owners are not currently paying, added on top of the loss of all tax breaks / incentives which they are now getting ( this year it's been cut by 50%, next year all tax breaks will be eliminated ) and as if that wasn't  enough , add to that loss of use of the carpool lanes which is already happening in various states, including CA , will most certainly be the last nail in the coffin for the EV industry.   The overwhelming majority of people who buy EV cars buy them for the above mentioned  reasons, not because it's a new, " advanced " technology and ( ostensibly ) promoted as an environmentally friendly vehicle. 

 

Don't even get me started on solar panels  ;  a sure way to destroy the appearance of your house with the f-ugliest things imaginable, and good luck trying to "sell" that energy saving concept not just to the debt-strapped Americans, but anyone who realizes that the return on the average $ 20 - $30 K investment in terms of electricity bills reduction is about twenty years !   I'm averaging $ 200 / mo. in electric bills now, and even for me the return would take about 12 years..    But as I said, even if it was one year, they'd have to pay me $ 30 K and I still would not put those eye-sores on my house !                          

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[Rap]

windmill in the back yard?

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[Waylander]

1000 head of cattle, produce your own bottled gas?

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[ds968]

Both ideas better than solar panels, in my book. Well, ok maybe not the cow farts , unless the cattle have permanently attached bottles to their butts. And now folks we have completely gone off track and off topic from horse power to bovine power .

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[Spokayman]

Regarding solar panels on homes, there are many climate zones where panels do not produce well, and Im picturing how the tree lined streets and heavily shaded houses in the most charming neighborhoods of my city would look when denuded for the sake of some solar power. There are a lot of progressive folk in these neighborhoods and yet I believe few would accept any removal of trees, let alone adding panels to the roofs of their charming Victorian and Craftsman homes. People are actually suing when the city has a diseased or problem tree removed in certain historical sections of the city.


The point is that solar power is not free. Its expensive, impractical to impossible in many areas, and undesirable to many people.

Personally I am intrigued by the technology of turning sunlight into usable power and given a better location I might even install a small discrete system on my property as an interesting experiment.

But I am wholeheartedly against governments forcing such changes because inevitably such government run programs dont seem to allow for common sense.

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[ds968]

I have a solar car battery trickle charger ( looks like a mini solar panel ) I place on the roof of my Mercedes which is parked on the street and often sits there for weeks or months without being driven. I haven't used a voltmeter to measure specifically how quickly and how well it holds the battery charge, I think it's ok for its purpose since my battery never died , but a few members on the Maserati forums who use those solar tenders indicate it takes about a week or more for the equivalent charge of what an electric plug-in trickle charger does in about one hour. Maybe we're comparing apples to oranges here but thought I'd mention that I'm doing my part to support the solar energy industry ;-) :-)

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[Kim]

You know, 20 years ago a guy told the world he could have his life in his pocket. Who would have thought it possible?

 

I think that there will be a point in time when one of two things will happen. It will be too late, and we can simply keep on the current path for another 100 years or so, finally simply going away to not return for another 3 billion years.  Or we can wake up sometime in the next generation, dig our heads from the sand, and get on with it.  You're either getting on with life or getting on with dying.

 

A lot of things need to change.  The thinking of some of us old farts needs to be the among first.

 

I'm hoping that EVs will replace combustion engines soon, and the electricity to charge them will come from renewable sources. And Toronto will win the Stanley Cup.

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[Waylander]

That last part was serious wishful thinking


And I don’t disagree, things do need to change but replacing one poison with another at short notice with no consideration of the consequences is not the answer


Railroading what the governments see as a huge pocket liner is a big cock up waiting to happen

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