[Cloud9...68]

I'm looking for some advice from you experienced racers out there, because I'm getting very frustrated with my experience tracking my car. I've done three DEs now, and I still basically suck, having made very little progress since my first session. I've learned the (very long) track, my track awareness has improved, and I've gotten the line down pretty well, but as soon as I try to pick up the speed a little, I start getting very jerky and ragged, which of course translates to very, very SLOW.



My instructor at my most recent DE kept emphasizing that the root cause of my problem is that I'm not looking far enough down the track. He said that he could tell I'm looking at the pavement in front of my car, and this is causing me to involuntarily make jerky mid-turn corrections to "aim" for the apex, when I should have already committed to the line through the turn by turn-in, and be looking up track to at least track-out, if not beyond, keeping the wheel still throughout the turn. Unfortunately, this proved easier said than done, and it ended up being a very frustrating weekend.



Since that weekend, I've noticed that when I drive on the street, or even when I walk, say down a corridor, or out in the open, my eyes focus on the ground a few feet in front of me, occasionally glancing up at where I'm going. I polled the rest of my family on this, and my wife says she does just the opposite, looking straight ahead, glancing down only occasionally to make sure she doesn't run into anything. My 9-year-old does the same thing, but my 12-year-old, like me, primarily looks down. So, I've been working at re-training my eyes to look ahead when I walk and drive, but it's very tiring, both for my eyes, and neck, to undo a lifetime of something as basic as the way I look out at the world.



Watching how other people appear to look while they're walking, I see a mix, though most people seem to be looking ahead more than I do. Is this a common problem? Has anybody else out there had to re-train their vision to look ahead rather than in front of them? How long does it take? Is it even possible, or am I a lost cause? Any recommendations, exercises, etc? Despite how miserably I've done on the track, I really love it (I would equate my experience to someone who really loves being out on the golf course with his friends for the overall ambience and experience of it, but is getting very tired of shooting in the 120's), and am not the least bit afraid of going fast, I just want to do anything I can to help make that happen. Thanks; looking forward (no pun intended <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> ) to hearing what you guys have to say.

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[BMWRider]

Not that I have a solution for you but I wonder if it does not have something to do with the way we grow up? I grew up on a bicycle and certainly look towards the horizon and not the ground. Or maybe the need for corrective lenses while learning to get through the world? Maybe growing up walking (particularly in a city) changes that. The other thought that ran through my head reading your post is that motorcycling would quickly cure you of the habit, it is critical that you are always several seconds ahead, looking towards your intended exit point, constantly scanning, identifying, and predicting what will occur ahead.



I do not race, though I am sure it would make me a better driver, but having taught motorcycle safety courses I have some knowledge of cornering techniques, apex, and lines. I am sure it is slightly different for cars, but the methods are essentially the same, and because I am not a trained driver I use my motorcycle techniques in my car.



When training new riders who did not look up, I would take them out in the car and make them look up, allowing them to constantly feed me data from ahead as I drove, allowing them to concentrate on what was ahead. I constantly quizzed them about what was going on around them, 360 degree awareness being critical in the world of riding. Maybe some time in the co-pilots seat of the car when out with you wife could help you work on those skills.



Sorry if my advice is radically different than what drivers do, but I am sure the skills are about the same.

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[mike]

You are not a lost cause. It can be very difficult to break old habits. I think that it is just a matter of time and conscious repetition before looking ahead becomes your new habit. And looking ahead to pick up your visual cues as soon as possible will help you to slow things down in your mind by giving you more time to process the firehose of information that is flooding your brain. It is my experience that my hands will take me to where I am looking. As I am approaching a corner I am looking ahead for my visual reference points for braking, turn-in, apex, and track out. That will likely be a cone at most DE's. But you can't always assume that cone has been placed at the corectly either. In any case, the cone should just serve as a reference. If there are no cones you will have to find your own reference points on the track. Your eyes should be always looking ahead for the next refernce point. The most critcal reference to me is the apex. As soon as I can spot that point, my brain knows to tell my hands where I have to start turning to hold a constant radius through the turn. There are certain turns where you will not be able to see the apex until after you have started your turn-in. For those kinds of turns you need to rely on your turn-in reference point. Another thing to remember in relation to looking ahead, is that you have to drive your own line. Don't follow the car in front of you. You can't assume that the driver in front of you knows what he/she is doing. Also, try not to think too much about the cars in your mirror. Be aware that they are there but concentrate on your driving and looking ahead and let them pass at the next passing zone.



Good luck; hope this helps,

mike

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[Eric_K]

Where to look is a skill that needs to be practiced like other driving skills. One way to practice is to look as far as you can around the corner before you turn in. Make yourself turn your head to emphasize it. You can also do it on the street. Find a twisty road and try to look around each corner and not at the road in front of you. The car will naturally go where you are looking - like magic <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />.



This is what I try to do:

-When approaching the corner look at the turn station - you don't want to miss a flag.

-Check your mirrors.

-Look for your brake marker.

-Look into the corner, to make sure the coast is clear

-As you are braking, look all the way to the corner exit - if you can see it. You want to make sure there is not anything going on that will surprise you when you get there.

-Before you turn in, look at the apex.

-After you have turned, look past the apex to where you are going to track out.



Ideally, you should only turn the wheel once. That arc should carry you thru the apex to the exit. It is hard at first because you are thinking about the 100 other things you need to do. But with practice, it all becomes natural.

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[TheMirror]

Hi Cloud -



I'm not a professional by any means, but I do have very good eyesight habits and fundamentals. Here's what you can do to re-train your eyes without the added stress of hurtling down the track:



First of all, what is your eyesight like in general? If you have vision problems that need correcting, start there.



To train yourself to look ahead properly, start doing it only occasionally when walking. Look ahead of you to where you want to go, and plot in your mind the shortest, most direct way to get there. Don't try to do it all the time, just concentrate every now and then so you don't overwork yourself.



Walk or run on a trail and practice looking ahead. Anticipate the turn or turns ahead and plan your way through. Position yourself as you would in a car.

Walk through and step on the apex of every turn on the trail.

Look ahead to the next turn on the trail and imagine yourself in a car.

You can even go as far as speeding up your walking on the straight parts and slowing where you would imaginarily be braking.



The point is to get it in your mind's eye so that it becomes natural. Then you can transfer that to the track.



The track is a tough place to learn that kind of thing. High speed, high stress, lots of mental and physical distractions.



Start looking ahead and apexing with everyday walking and I guarantee you will end up doing it without even knowing it.



My $.02 anyway.



Good luck,

-Mirror

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='BMWRider' date='Nov 4 2006, 09:47 AM']Not that I have a solution for you but I wonder if it does not have something to do with the way we grow up?  I grew up on a bicycle and certainly look towards the horizon and not the ground.  Or maybe the need for corrective lenses while learning to get through the world?  Maybe growing up walking (particularly in a city) changes that.  The other thought that ran through my head reading your post is that motorcycling would quickly cure you of the habit, it is critical that you are always several seconds ahead, looking towards your intended exit point, constantly scanning, identifying, and predicting what will occur ahead. 



I do not race, though I am sure it would make me a better driver, but having taught motorcycle safety courses I have some knowledge of cornering techniques, apex, and lines.  I am sure it is slightly different for cars, but the methods are essentially the same, and because I am not a trained driver I use my motorcycle techniques in my car.



When training new riders who did not look up, I would take them out in the car and make them look up, allowing them to constantly feed me data from ahead as I drove, allowing them to concentrate on what was ahead.  I constantly quizzed them about what was going on around them, 360 degree awareness being critical in the world of riding.  Maybe some time in the co-pilots seat of the car when out with you wife could help you work on those skills.



Sorry if my advice is radically different than what drivers do, but I am sure the skills are about the same.

[right][post="27555"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Mike,



Thanks for the advice. Actually, from my limited experience at the DEs, my impression is that motorcycle racers (and I'm sure this would go for instructors as well) make excellent, natural drivers, and your advice is right in line with what my DE instructors have told me. You might want to consider trying out a DE; sounds like you have the mental skills and discipline that would serve you very well. Good luck.

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='mike' date='Nov 4 2006, 10:59 AM']You are not a lost cause.  It can be very difficult to break old habits.  I think that it is just a matter of time and conscious repetition before looking ahead becomes your new habit.  And looking ahead to pick up your visual cues as soon as possible will help you to slow things down in your mind by giving you more time to process the firehose of information  that is flooding your brain.  It is my experience that my hands will take me to where I am looking.  As I am approaching a corner I am looking ahead for my visual reference points for braking, turn-in, apex, and track out.  That will likely be a cone at most DE's.  But  you can't always assume that cone has been placed at the corectly either.  In any case, the cone should just serve as a reference.  If  there are no cones you will have to find your own reference points on the track.  Your eyes should be always looking ahead for the next refernce point.  The most critcal reference to me is the apex.  As soon as I can spot that point, my brain knows to tell my hands where I have to start turning to hold a constant radius through the turn. There are certain turns where you will not be able to see the apex until after you have started your turn-in.  For those kinds of turns you need to rely on your turn-in reference point.  Another thing to remember in relation to looking ahead, is that you have to drive your own line.  Don't follow the car in front of you.  You can't assume that the driver in front of you knows what he/she is doing.  Also, try not to think too much about the cars in your mirror.  Be aware that they are there but concentrate on your driving and looking ahead and let them pass at the next passing zone.



Good luck; hope this helps,

mike

[right][post="27561"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Mike #2,



Thanks; as with the others who have replied for my call for help, your advice is right on. Everything you say makes perfect sense. My challenge has been in reducing it to practice. I would look down the track like I'm supposed to, then would revert to my natural tendency of looking in front of the car, lose faith in my track-in, and jerk the wheel to what I thought was a "better" path to the apex. I didn't realize until I started observing how my eyes naturally track in my daily activities how strong my tendency to not look ahead is. Being the father of two young, very messy girls has unfortunately reinforced that looking down where I am stepping can be a survival issue! And thanks most of all for your opinion that I'm not a lost cause. It sure felt that way after my last DE though; I swear I saw a kid on a bike pass me once, though I managed to out-duel that 80-year-old lady with the walker...

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[rhudeboye]

Nothing to add but What a great thread.



A friend and I are getting lessons next year. Will be interesting to see just what I thought I’ve been doing right all these years that’s been wrong.

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[Apex Rex]

While you are out driving on the highway, look for the mile markers on the side of the road. You can use them to increase how far ahead you are looking. Once you get comfortable at say 1 marker ahead, go up to looking 2 ahead, then up to 3, so on and so forth. Also while driving, do not stay behind trucks, they don't exactly let you see past them very easily. Just another suggestion...

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='Apex Rex' date='Nov 5 2006, 04:19 PM']While you are out driving on the highway, look for the mile markers on the side of the road.  You can use them to increase how far ahead you are looking.  Once you get comfortable at say 1 marker ahead, go up to looking 2 ahead, then up to 3, so on and so forth.  Also while driving, do not stay behind trucks, they don't exactly let you see past them very easily.  Just another suggestion...

[right][post="27579"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Thanks; I've pretty much been doing that. I'm working on looking WAY down the road (when it's safe, of course). It's amazing how unnatural doing this has felt, but with each passing day, it's feeling more "normal." I can equate it to trying to re-learn tennis with my non-dominant hand (or even worse, learning how to swing a golf club the opposite way - egads!)...

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[Anchorman]

I've done three 2-day DEs and have wrestled with the same problem. From observing myself more carefully, I've realized that in normal street driving, it simply isn't possible to look "down the road" - there are too many areas of potholes and other pavement issues that wouldn't be seen if I was looking "out" instead of "down". That's not to say I'm only looking in front of the hood, as I do look sufficiently "out" to plan in advance for slower moving vehicles and lane changes. However, I have to watch close enough to the car to avoid pavement problems that otherwise could cause a bent wheel or a flat tire (and, with 18" wheels and low profile tires, that's not a fictional issue). On the track, the pavement issues generally don't exist, so the "excuse" - or, at least my "excuse" - doesn't exist. Once I realized that, I found it easier to look further down the track, and that has helped my track driving.

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='rhudeboye' date='Nov 5 2006, 02:44 PM']Nothing to add but What a great thread.



A friend and I are getting lessons next year. Will be interesting to see just what I thought I’ve been doing right all these years that’s been wrong.

[right][post="27577"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Yeah, it's definitely been very eye-opening (again, no pun intended, really...). I've found two major obstacles to learning how to drive correctly on the track. First, it helps to have a good sense of direction. The faster you can learn the track, the quicker you can focus on other, more important things, like the line, the corner workers, your smoothness, etc. I spent my entire first weekend struggling to learn the 3.1 mile, 16 major turn track.



Second, the topic of this thread - the criticality of forcing yourself to look way down the track as soon as you begin your turn-in, which forces you to commit to the line in the current corner, hold the wheel steady, and immediately begin thinking about the next corner. Sounds simple, but it's been very challenging for me. You might want to observe what your eyes focus on as you walk. If, like me, you tend to look down at the ground in front of you, you might want to train yourself to look forward more. This will give you a leg up when you get out to the track. If you tend to naturally look forward (and have a good sense of direction), you should be in very good shape.



Other things that are helpful include knowing how to heal-and-toe. This is something I learned many years ago, and have always practiced on the street, so it hasn't been a problem. And finally, just plain not being afraid to drive fast. The speed you achieve going into a corner can be a little intimidating, but to me, this sensation of speed is what makes the experience a blast, despite all the problems I've had. Good luck.

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='Anchorman' date='Nov 5 2006, 08:48 PM']I've done three 2-day DEs and have wrestled with the same problem.  From observing myself more carefully, I've realized that in normal street driving, it simply isn't possible to look "down the road" - there are too many areas of potholes and other pavement issues that wouldn't be seen if I was looking "out" instead of "down".  That's not to say I'm only looking in front of the hood, as I do look sufficiently "out" to plan in advance for slower moving vehicles and lane changes.  However, I have to watch close enough to the car to avoid pavement problems that otherwise could cause a bent wheel or a flat tire (and, with 18" wheels and low profile tires, that's not a fictional issue).  On the track, the pavement issues generally don't exist, so the "excuse" - or, at least my "excuse" - doesn't exist.  Once I realized that, I found it easier to look further down the track, and that has helped my track driving.

[right][post="27586"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Nice to know I'm not the only one who has struggled with un-learning the habit of looking closely in front (though it's sure felt that way at times). I'm glad to hear that getting past this has helped you. I'm looking forward to experiencing the same thing.

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='TheMirror' date='Nov 4 2006, 06:25 PM']Hi Cloud -



First of all, what is your eyesight like in general? If you have vision problems that need correcting, start there.



    My eyesight is OK.  I'm a little nearsighted, and wear glasses and prescription sunglasses, which take care of it.



To train yourself to look ahead properly, start doing it only occasionally when walking. Look ahead of you to where you want to go, and plot in your mind the shortest, most direct way to get there. Don't try to do it all the time, just concentrate every now and then so you don't overwork yourself. 



    That's an interesting point.  I tend to get pretty obsessive, so once I realized how bad my habit of looking down as I walked was, I immediately began forcing myself to look forward, never allowing my eyes to look down as I walked.  As you can imagine, this is extremely tiring.  My eyes feel as though they'd bench pressed their weight five hundred times by the end of the day (OK, that's a very weak metaphor, but you get the idea...)  Anyway, I spent most of today in the house, doing a lot of close-in activity, which gave my eyes a much needed break from their "training."  Guess I've been overdoing it.



Walk or run on a trail and practice looking ahead. Anticipate the turn or turns ahead and plan your way through. Position yourself as you would in a car.

Walk through and step on the apex of every turn on the trail.

Look ahead to the next turn on the trail and imagine yourself in a car.

You can even go as far as speeding up your walking on the straight parts and slowing where you would imaginarily be braking.



The point is to get it in your mind's eye so that it becomes natural. Then you can transfer that to the track.



The track is a tough place to learn that kind of thing. High speed, high stress, lots of mental and physical distractions.



Start looking ahead and apexing with everyday walking and I guarantee you will end up doing it without even knowing it.



My $.02 anyway.



Good luck,

-Mirror

[right][post="27565"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Very good advice overall. I will give your suggestion to pretend I'm in my car while walking on a trail a try (I'll try to avoid making Porsche engine sounds while doing it <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> ) And you're right, the track is a tough place to learn all this. The best analogy I can give is that it's a cross between golf, and all its unforgivigness (is that a word? The spell checker doesn't think so), need for absolute concentration, and uniqueness of every hole and shot, with the speed and fury of downhill skiing. Hopefully others who are new to the track experience will benefit from the challenges I've run into, and from the great advice you guys have given. Thanks again.

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[sguy]

Hi Cloud,

There is some excellent advice given above and fits with my limited experience of 5 years on the track. It can be helpful to train your mind is to form a mental picture of a corner with all the elements and have your vision place you and your car in that picture. Sitting at your computer, can you vision the whole track, your car on the track and the line you take and all your reference points? To help vision the whole picture of where you are is to use not only your focused vision, but also your peripheral vision. This is another mental training experience. When good at using peripferal vision you can look ahead, but also see objects or reference points close to you. At my home track, Spokane Raceway Park, there is a 280 degree left hand hairpin. When entering the corner track right, I'm looking left at the apex, but waiting for the turn in point that I spotted earlier and I kept track of the turn in point "out of the corner of my eye". When I can no longer see that point to my right, while still looking left, I turn in, then shift the whole vision picture forward on the track.



In short, keep your eyes/mind moving through the mental/physical layout of the track and use all your vision. (I will admit freely that I'm still learning and enhancing my abilities, that's one of the great satifications with high performance driving - improving, no matter how fast or slowly it happens). Keep up the work and I'm sure you'll see results.



Cheers, Stephen

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[ether_joe]

great thread guys.



I haven't done any track driving - passenger stuff though - but I'm going to keep it in mind for cone racing and hunting the twisties.



keep it comin. . .

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[Clem]

My suggestion is to talk to yourself on the track - a lot.

Basically the things your instructor says, you should be saying to yourself first. LOOK AHEAD, LOOK AHEAD!



Also, Eric's point about looking through a corner is critical. You want to see where you are going LONG before you turn in - otherwise, you'll never make it.

I find that DEs generally put new drivers in the habit of connecting the dots with cones - and as you get faster, you can't do that.



Look through the corner, don't worry so much about hitting your reference points, and really drive through the turns.

If you are having trouble doing this - slow down until you can.

This will help you build a better feel for driving at speed and will help you develop a flow/rhythm that I find are much more valuable than turning in exactly at the turn-in cone that someone happened to put at a particular part of the track as a general reference for any/all cars. Seems silly.



My opinion, but you have to find what works for you.



Good luck! This is all part of the fun/challenge of the track!

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[Anchorman]

Clem, you make some excellent points. In my first outings, I definitely was "aiming" for the cones in every corner; nothing mattered other than whether or not I "hit" the points. More recently, I've been a little less conscious of the cones and more aware of what "feels right" - and I've been faster this way.



Theoretical question - does a corner have a geometrically correct - or optimal - line?



Practical question - how should one handle a decreasing radius turn? I haven't experienced one on the track, but some highway exit and entrance ramps are like this, and I've been playing with them - at one point, scaring myself a bit, but I'm still here and trying.

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[ether_joe]

one thing I've noticed (this is in cone racing), when I back off, do the courses at 6 or 7/10, and concentrate on smoothness, the course comes much more easily so I then get a much better sense of the car's feedback to me.



I started to feel at the last autox I did how much more speed the car could potentially carry since I wasn't jerking it around as much. I was able to reduce my braking and even eliminate some brake points altogether. End of the day I was 2-3 secs behind the race-prepped 944's in my bone stock 968. felt pretty good about that.



Anyways. . . my experience certainly validated the 'go slow to go fast' and 'smooth' advice that beginners seem to get. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[mike]

[quote name='Anchorman' date='Nov 6 2006, 08:12 PM']Theoretical question - does a corner have a geometrically correct - or optimal - line?



Practical question - how should one handle a decreasing radius turn?  I haven't experienced one on the track, but some highway exit and entrance ramps are like this, and I've been playing with them - at one point, scaring myself a bit, but I'm still here and trying.

[right][post="27615"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Good questions Anchor...A constant radius corner does have a geometrically correct line. And theoretically speaking, the fastest line through the corner will be the line that allows you to create the biggest arc possible. This is why you want to use as much of the track that is available to you. You will often see racers use even more track by taking advantage of the rumble strips or sometimes even into the dirt.



For a decreasing radius turn, the apex is past the halfway point in the turn. So you want to turn in later to late apex this type of turn so that you do not run out of track.



mike

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