[333pg333]

We do mostly super sprints which comprise of all out 4-6 lap blitzes. We mostly use R-spec rubber down under of the Toyo, Yoko, Dunlop, Bridgestone variety as opposed to Hoosiers / Kumhos, or slicks for that matter. I sort of assume by reading that the Hoosiers / K's are somewhere inbetween normal R-specs and slicks in that they seem to offer a potential faster time but go off much faster. Once I get the dry sump installed later this year I will venture onto slicks, but I'm wondering if I should look at the H/K tyre for now. In effect they sound almost perfect for our events but in reality how long can you get out of them as I will be on at least 285's x 18" rears and they are really expensive down under (approx. $600 US per tyre!). I got almost a whole first season out of my Toyo R888's (update of RA1's) in 2006 and that included some road driving so they are very hardwearing.

Also is the step up to slicks as large as it was to R-specs? Many vendors seem to think that the quality of R-spec has risen so much of late that they're not too far behind the slicks and some of the times are a testament to this.

All advice/opinion appreciated.



This will be on a 951 with approx 500hp at the crank approx. 2800lbs.



t.i.a.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[333pg333]

Bump, nobody?

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

do you want to win?

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Eric_K]

In those kind of events I would think the tires would heat cycle out and become hard before you actually used up the rubber. Generally the softer the rubber compound, the quicker it will heat cycle out. If you are looking for 'value' in race tires then going softer (i.e. faster) moves quickly away from value. Toyos give great bang for the buck but will not have the ultimate grip of Hoosiers/Kumho 710s. Yes, real slicks would will be even faster and even shorter lived. If the other guy has slicks and you want to beat him then..... It is really all about what you can afford and how fast you want to go.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[333pg333]

Ok so it's really how much you want to win v's longevity of tyre?

So in effect they will go off faster with 5 to 6 short sprint type events v's going out for less times but longer duration? Also, in general terms we get the harder compounds on the Toyos, Yokos, Dunlops out here and often they may not even carry softer versions as in general Sydney is pretty warm. I have also heard that the Hoosiers require a more considered breaking in period rather than just put the Toyos on and drive.

I'd be prepared to try the Hoos although if they're really only going to be good for one or two meets then that is just too expensive. Need to find someone that does similar events to us using Hoos.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Eric_K]

A heat cycle is a heat cycle whether it is ten minutes or a half an hour. You would probably notice the performance of slicks falling off after 5-6 runs even though it is not that much total time or distance. Hoosiers would last longer. I get 15-20 sessions out of mine. Toyos last seemingly forever.



I would never buy Hoosiers if they were $2400. They aren't THAT good. There must be some other options available to you. Can you get Kumhos? What do guys with 911 GT3 Cups run? There must be guys running GT3s down under.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

here's a different perspective:



since this is really hobby racing, and there is no money in it, if tires are what are going to make the difference, you have to make a decision:



1. get the best ones you can, forget the cost, and win



2. get what you can afford, deal with maybe not winning



3. realize that you are driving better than the car you are running, and change cars to something faster and start all over



4. realize that you are budget limited and change classes to a slower class that does not require the same level of car preparation



budget does play a part in hobby racing for almost everybody - there are ways through that though



personally, if you are at the point where tires are a factor, i'd be nailing down a sponsor

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[333pg333]

Erik, I can get the Hoosiers $1870 for a set without heat cycling. The Toyos are $2500. Unfortunately we pay for our nice weather here when we buy imported goods, lol. I am investigating importing the tyres from TireRack and saving about $100 per tire inc. h/cyc.



Flash, all good points. For me the few ambitions I have are to get back to the track after a total nightmare of a year with MID's and my red rag is to beat some of the GT3 and even GT2's of the guys that pay us scant regard. So if these types of tires help me achieve that and they're cheaper than my current ones (with the knowledge that they're more expensive over the season) then I say Hallelujah! Money at this level is down on my list on the budget constraints, and I actually did have some sponsorship for the last 2 years which found it's way into 3 rebuilds...

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

no worries - i'm soon to have to start making the same kinds of decisions again - i may not be too far now from starting on the race car project

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[333pg333]

What sort of racing are you looking at and what sort of build would you be doing? Something along the lines of Eric's?

Just watching videos of Eric and Charles amongst others, show how different the n/a 968 platform is and how you have to develop different skill sets to keep your speed up and make up a lot of ground under brakes and through the corners. Plus the nicest thing is that you get to drive home again or turn up the next day to do it again with your trailer cars. The twin edged sword of the turbo is the addiction to the 'boost monster' yet the decreased reliablility. Really hard to break the habit though. Engine coming later this year will allow me to have upwards of 650 hp crank at 1.0bar so that should give me the best of both worlds with a smidgen of luck...er good luck that is.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

nope - going to be a cab to begin with - no windshield - skinned body - one piece tilt front end - supercharged 3.2 liter



lol - just because i can



for me it's as much about the building as it is the driving

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Jim Child]

[quote name='333pg333' post='45531' date='Jan 10 2008, 11:48 PM']Erik, I can get the Hoosiers $1870 for a set without heat cycling. The Toyos are $2500.[/quote]



If you can get Hoosiers for that much less then Toyos, then it’s a no-brainer IMO. Go for the Hoosiers. I wouldn't bother with the Tire Rack heat cycling. Their heat cycling machine is of questionable value IMO. If you really want the full benefit of heat cycling you need to do it yourself on the track according to Hoosier's instructions. While you're shopping around you might also want to investigate the price and availability of the new BFG R1's. They'll provide performance similar to the Hoosiers.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Eric_K]

Toyos costing significantly more than Hoosiers is crazy. You really pay that much for tires there? Why do they cost so much? Shipping a Toyo from Japan to Aus can't cost much more than shipping them to the US. Are there some crazy taxes or something? I certianly would be racing less if that is what it cost here. I get my shaved Toyos for around 900, albiet they are 17's, but still. Even if they are the same price the value in the Toyos comes from their extended life vs. Hoosier.

650 hp crank at 1.0bar

<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/ohmy.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> That is nuts!

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Jim Child]

For me the R6 Hoosiers lasted longer than any of Hoosier's prior DOT models. Unlike the previous Hoosier models, the R6's tend to heat cycle out long before they cord. Last year I would try to run my R6's in a practice session to heat cycle them, preferably at least 24 hours before driving them in anger. Then I would run them in a 20 minute qualifying session, a 30-35 minute race, another 20 minute qualifying session, and another 30-35 minute race. That's a total of 5 heat cycles. Up to that point the tires are considerably faster than Toyo RA1's, at least a full second on a 2.25 mile track. After that point they start to slow down a little bit, but are still at least as fast, if not a bit faster than Toyo RA1's. They'll go at least another 10-15 heat cycles before they get significantly slower than a Toyo RA1. So going to Hoosiers will get you an advantage over the Toyo guys while they're fresh, but shouldn't penalize you too badly once they start to go off. They may not ultimately last as long as the Toyos, but with your pricing you can get 4 sets of Hoosiers for the same price as 3 sets of Toyos.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Eric_K]

Yep, there is no doubt the Hoosiers are faster. The thing with the Toyo RA1 is that gives decent performance but lasts a lot longer without the performance falling off. I see 2-3X the useful life with the toyo vs Hoosier. It is a significant budget difference. I can run Toyos shaved at 4/32nds for an entire 8 hour enduro and they are practically as fast as new for a couple more sprint races.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[333pg333]

Bob, that will be something to behold when you do it. Make sure to include plenty of pics. I know what you mean re the build, not that I do so much of the hard work on mine, but I want to put together something special and shake up some of the establishment. From my research there is still a lot of pretty amazing product about to be introduced for our front engined cars. Good time to be doing a build I reckon over the next year or so.

Here's just a little teaser especially for you 968'ers. Not everything is for everybody, but there is some nice stuff here too.

http://www.arktech-motorsports.com/misc/968site/

I'd hang those pipes on my wall before a lot of art!



Jim, yes you're right. It is a no brainer. The main thing I have to consider is whether to get another set of wheels the same size as mine now so I can do some proper heat cycling and curing, or use my older 17's that are narrower at 8.5" and 9" rather than my 18's 9's and 10's. To add to this, I have a brand new set of Toyos on my 18's which I could use for road and track I suppose. I love them on the road as well. Finally there are not a perfect sizewise front and rear for my 18's. Either too much width difference or the fronts are larger OD than the rears. As you say, the R1's are meant to be a good alternative and I might be able to squeeze 265 & 295 with enough neg front and rear. So, lots to consider.



Eric, basically every import is taxed to the hilt in this country. You are correct in saying that it is crazy. One of my Toyos on the rear costs $650au which is still over $600US. Someone is not going broke in this arrangement, except the poor schmucks like me who have to have this level of product. I am only club racing here too. If we had the type of racing you do it would become too expensive for the majority. As Flash says, look for sponsorship, but that is hard to get here as well. Too small a population. 24 million on a chunk of land almost the size of the US. Ironically in Sydney where we have about 5 million so it's a pretty big city even by world standards, we have two racetracks and one of them is being bulldozed in a year or so to be developed into housing. The next nearest one is about 3 hours drive away and not much good. How much do you think the only one in town is going to be charging in a few years???

Yet they have a problem with all the young guys in their mostly Jap stuff with crazy hp dragging around on the streets. Build another track and get them racing is what I'd be doing if I was king for a day.

Oh, and the 650hp crank at 1.0 bar is speculative but it will be somewhere around there. Maybe a bit more boost but this engine will have the capacity of well over 700hp we believe. Time will tell.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[vnarma]

Ouch, coming late to the thread. Definately a price penalty.



There is a sharp jump in performance going to the V710/A6/R6 type times. I'd likely go V710 in your scenario, as they were designed to handle the sharp heat cycle of Autocross, but do hold up nicely on the 968 on the track. They are still sharp after 12-15 heat cycles, and become "loosier" after that. My experience over this past year is the Hoosier seem to fall over faster. Very different feel between the two. The RA-1/NT-01 (haven't tried the R888's yet, as they were just introduced in the US), function over a fairly broad slip angle, and the Hooiser have much higher grip over a much smaller slip angle. The V710 is much grippier than the Toyo/Nitto's with a similar slip angle. Personally, I like the communication and feel of the V710 better. I stuck with 17" rims, as the cost benefit of going to 18" didn't make sense for me.



But as the man said, if money is no object, go for the stickiest tire you can get, but you will PAY dearly!! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/blink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[333pg333]

Thanks Vaino for the feedback. It's funny how you get such differing opinions of the various tyres out there. I guess it's like beer lol.

I have heard people who have had issues with the Kumhos as far as quality control and failures etc, but I take your point and like the descriptors of the slip/grip abilities.

Now I'm hearing that these '2 liner' type tyres may just get us thrown into the open class with slick shod Cup Cars and GT2/3's just for fun!!! It seems to me that by far more front engined Porsche guys are running Hoos, K's, BFG's etc than actual slicks in the US. Do they not consider these of a similar genus/class for you guys? I realise that they're not slicks but by how much, what's the real difference? If they're going to chuck me into the shark tank, I'll wait until I've got the dry sump system and do the slick thing...if there's an even greater advantage to be had? I can't seem to get much attention or answers on the Racing forums on Rennlist. Maybe I should drive my car in reverse so they think the engine is in the back!

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Torbjorn968]

[quote name='Jim Child' post='45569' date='Jan 11 2008, 08:02 PM']So going to Hoosiers will get you an advantage over the Toyo guys while they're fresh, but shouldn't penalize you too badly once they start to go off. They may not ultimately last as long as the Toyos, but with your pricing you can get 4 sets of Hoosiers for the same price as 3 sets of Toyos.[/quote]



Just got a seat in a Endurance team running an E 30 M 3. The car owner asked me what i knew about Hoosiers in indurance events (he can get a good price from the Swedish importer). Erik says the Toyos last longer but what is the difference runing them in an endurance event? Will the hosiers go the distance? Our races are 8 hours and the M 3 is 945 kgs. Given the deal we have we save about 30% using the Hosiers compare to other DOT marked R tyres.



A personal question since I use my car on open road: how are the Hosiers compared to other R tyres for everyday driving purposes (I know it is going to be noisy and wiggly but there are degrees to things).



Over and out from Sweden!



T

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Eric_K]

There are a lot variables. What kind of Hoosier? The R6 is the most common for road racing, but if they are cheap they could be closeout GrandAm spec tires or something - which are completely different. I would think it would be marginal getting Hoosiers to last 8 hours. The car is light but the setup would need to be perfect. The performance will have certainly fallen off by the end too. The toyos will definitely go 8 hours with very little fall off in performance - but they will be slower in the beginning.



Hoosiers would be horrible on the street. Very easily punctured and wouldn't last long.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.