[968Syncro]

Hi folks,



So the car has been tramlining, rally bad, feels like it is getting worse. One piece of history is last January I had the steering rack replaced, and installed the Koni yellow shocks all the way around. They also did a 4 wheel alignment. Nothing else new since then, no changes, no events. And this tramlining wasn't here before this repair, it happened after.



Anyway, the tramlining is starting to drive me nuts. They repaved, or coated a few of the roads around here, some kind of thin overlay that was put on unevenly. And literally the car keeps jerking side to side; enough! It had a bit of this effect last spring, I figured it was just because of the extra firm ride from the Konis. I dialed the front ones down to the "softest" setting, the rears are supposed to be at "medium" from the install at the shop.



I am starting to wonder about the alignment, it could be my imagination, but the car literal looks like it has a bit of toe-out! Did they do the alignment wrong last Jan? Could the adjustment on the tie rods be loose and now drifting? Is there a way I can do a rough check on the toe at home (using strings / yardsticks or something like that?



Thanks

Roland

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[flash]

it is likely the alignment - you wouldn't believe how out of whack many racks are - the shops usually refuse to admit it too



do you have a 4' level? set it against the tire and measure



you can also use a framing square on flat level ground to compare camber angles

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[968Syncro]

Hi Flash,



Thanks I don't have a 4 ft. level, used to, also used to have other tools that can't be found anymore; man the stuff disappears, don't know how, wife, kids, workers. I always put things back but then they aren't there!



Anyway, I do sometimes get tired of "some of" the shops. With time I grow more skeptical that they are doing things correctly; when I pick the car up it is always "all done, pay here!" with little further comment or explanation.



But you gave me an idea, see below for the geometry. If we hold a straight edge on both of the front tires, lower down where they will clear the bodywork, than maybe we can get a good approximation. Two helpers hold the straight edges, perhaps known good, true lumber with no warp or flex, or any other straight things, like a couple of thick pipes, that are known to have no bend. And then if we measure carefully. In the drawing "A" is just some known distance, could be based at the wheel center, or the leading edge of the tire. And then if we measure X and Y, assume X.A.Y.A is a trapezoid, we can calculate the toe angle, gotta look up the calculation again, but I think this could work. What do you think?



   

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[flash]

yup - that will work, but slide them so that there is an equal amount in front and in back of the tire - it is obviously critical to make sure the straightedges are actually straight - a 2x4 will be off by more than the toe set should be - you will need to use something metal, hence why i suggested a level



but, home depot sells pieces of angle that would work

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[rxter]

I recently had an alignment done that worked out pretty well. He set it up for aggressive street so the front end feels a little light, but she really digs in the turns. I'm sure he can do a more conservative setting. Nice guy. And he worked on it while I waited so I know he has at least a clue <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> Let me know if you want the guys name/address. I got it from a local 944 racer BTW.

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[968Syncro]

Finally got the wheels aligned. Appears the main problems were the right front camber, too much toe in on front wheels, and right rear camber. The car handled significantly better on the drive back home, but I have more evaluation to do. I just don't understand this stuff sometimes, a year ago I paid $250 for a 4 wheel alignment and there has only been normal driving since then; no events that would cause alignment to change that I can think of. Mistake was I didn't ask for the report a year ago. This one was $150, with a shop I really trust, have taken some cars there before. The tech worked on it for just short of 3 hours including a few test drives. Equipment is the "Hunter".



Here is the report, any comments would be valued.

   

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[flash]

the problem is that most shops do not calibrate their machines as often as they should, and refuse to believe, let alone admit, that they are out of whack - they really need to be calibrated AT LEAST once a month



as for things being off or changing, they can do that pretty easily - it doesn't take much in bushing compression, or wheel bearing play to change the alignment geometry - remember, an alignment is only as good as the items from which it is taking measurements - worn castor blocks, sloppy tire rod ends, worn wheel bearings and any number of other things can affect the measurements



that being said, while it still has more toe than i tend to like, and a touch less front camber, the numbers are all decent, so if it drives well, count yourself fortunate and enjoy

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[968Syncro]

Thanks for the feedback Flash, I forgot to mention that I asked for a full inspection of all the bushings, ball joints, etc. They stated emphatically that this is standard procedure for all vehicles they align. They didn't report any problem, but then of course they aren't all that experienced with these cars. I am sure some things are worn, I have all the repair records back to '99, and there aren't any that show front suspension rebuild. Oh the shop is in San Marcos, probably under an hour drive for you if you wanted to try them -- depending on timing I'd meet you there and we could go get coffee while they do the work. Or go drool at Fry's down the road.

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[flash]

cool - it's hard to tell sometimes on wear and such, which is why every car should get an alignment annually or at least every 2 yrs - most car manufacturers will say that too

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[rxter]

Who'd you take it to and what did they charge? You can PM me if a public disclosure seems untoward. I got mine done recently and have been pretty happy. The car wanders a bit (actually feels like the front end is light or lifted up in the air a bit if you get what I mean), but it really hooks up when the going gets ugly in the twisties. This guy used a rack - is that the machine you are describing? He drove it on and worked away for a couple of hours with 2 test drives. He used some pretty manual looking stuff.

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[968Syncro]

I used "Alignment Plus" on Grand Avenue in San Marcos. (I don't see a problem in public disclosure,) Third or fourth time I've used them and was always pleased. It was $150. I know what you mean about the front end feeling light, mine doesn't have much of that. It was catching in the freeway cracks, and even slightly uneven pavement areas on asphalt as well. Even felt a little dangerous at times, where the wheel was being jerked around. I have only the one drive home experience from yesterday, but it felt much better. They told me I should get new front tires and that would help; they don't look bad to me, a little worn (evenly) with some tread left.

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[flash]

you should put a note up in the mechanic recommendation area - it's hard to find anybody who can or will do a good job on alignments - they are worth their weight in gold when you do

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[AJG]

When I replaced the front shocks last year I had an alignment done then had a free check 2 weeks later. Maybe it wasn't comprehensive enough. But I know all too well about tramlining (hand of God I call it) it's as if someone else is also trying to steer the car. Not that it really goes off line, its the feedback up from the tyres gives that tugging feeling. On smooth roads, (not a lot of that about), its great. White lines on the road et al can be disconcerting, especially on corners in the wet! Is there road chevrons in the US that try to slow you down approaching a major junction or whatever? Went over old ones recently which although the council had removed them,there was still some layering left on the road. I swear as I drove over it that I thought there was an earhquake immediately below the car, my Sport rumbled and shook like nobodies business! Fine for vodka martini's Miss Moneypenny but not much else! Must find somewhere to do the full bifta with the set-up.



Andy

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[rxter]

I remember that Clarkson griped about this car tramlining. Are some cars more susceptible? I had thought it was mostly about the tires (or tyres).

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[flash]

a lot of things contribute to tramlining, not the least of which are tread pattern, toe set, and castor angles

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[Cloud9...68]

Speaking of alignments... What are peoples' thoughts on doing this yourself? I used to think this was way outside the realm of your average do-it-yourselfer, but I've seen reference to home alignments is a few books I've read, and it doesn't seem like an insurmountable task, provided you have enough patience. Maybe the fact that I'm on the way to removing every moving part from my car as I prepare to rebuild the engine, revamp the suspension, and probably pull the transmission to fix a leak, has given me a false sense of confidence <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> . Comments?

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[flash]

it can be done - you just have to have very accurate and stable tools and facility - the car needs to be ABSOLUTELY level - this means 4 pads perfectly balanced and level, with the fronts swiveling - you also need to be able to roll the car back and forth on a level track to set castor - this is the major expense - the tools to accurately measure are not that bad, now that you can get portable laser stuff

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[968Syncro]

A search on the Internet using "home wheel alignment" revealed some articles.



Even Hot Rod has one that appears to be very thorough: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/chass...index.html



But as I look at the report for the job I got done yesterday, he was tuning in the hundredths of a degree! Would be tough if not impossible with home methods. Also be ready for lots of time, the service manager told me that the 968 was difficult for the technician since each time he got one wheel dialed in, it changed the settings on the other wheel (alignment is a relative measurement), and he had to go back and forth repeatedly to wheels he already had completed.



Besides, I guess you would need a lift or an oil pit (old days, we once had a home with a garage that had an oil pit), the car has to be on its wheels fully settled. Don't know how someone could get at the 968 suspension otherwise.

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[Lim Yong]

I had my front shocks replaced last year with Koni Sports. I brought Flash's recommended alignment setting (2) and It was great. The front feels a tiny loose compared to previous stock alignment but feels great with the counters. If you find a good shop, stick with them....

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