[TC17]

Hi



I would like to understand the "prefered choice" of suspension for Race 968's.



Having done quite a bit of research there is fair bit of choice, however after racing bikes for many years I quickly learnt there is only a few manufacturers that are any good (Ohlins, White Power etc)



My car has been used mainly for Track days and the Northloop of the Nurburgring using KW V3 however, over the winter the car evolving into a race car to compete in the Porsche Club Championship (Uk) and possibly the VLN series at the Nurburgring.



I have been researching various brands including Bilstein, KW 2 & 3 way (not Variant, their race kit) , Gaz, Ohlins and Koni 28 series.



If possible, I would appreciate the views of the guys that compete successfully in the U.S for some guidance.



Cheers



Tony

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[968workaholic]

The Bilsteins work really well with a wide variety of spring rates and driving styles. Once you get them set to where you like you don't have to readjust them again. Just my .02

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[Eric_K]

It seems all the fast 951 & 944s in my neck of the woods are running Motons. I can't afford the Moton price tag but the Bilstiens leave very little for me to complain about.



http://www.motonsuspension.com/

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[333pg333]

Well you should have plenty of support for KW's where you are and the beauty of the 2 or 3 way race setups is that it is custom made for you and your car. I also believe that their high and low speed release valves are better tech than some of the older systems out there. I would guess that they're cheaper than brands like the Ohlins and Motons too.

My 0.02 cents.

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[vnarma]

I can't complain about my KW Variant III. Although it is the streetable version, it was wonderful going over the turtles at the Glen. Big difference. If I wasn't ever streeting the car, I'd go forthe race version, as I'm a half a turn away from full. The East coast tracks are bumpy, so it does very well for us out here. Read the comments on the UK Porsche sites. It is the current favorite over the local Leda system. I can't speak from experience on the Moton (Have a couple of friends that love them), but on back to back runs of my KWs versus a nearly identical car with Leda, I'd take the KWs anyday. Street price is relatively cheap. Don't know about the local ability to get rebuilt.



Only downside is the rear shock rebound adjust requires you to drop the shock, or cut a hole in the body work to get to it.

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[TC17]

Vaino



You can see from my first post I already have KW V3 and whilst they are a good road/track compromise they are not designed for racing. The 2 way Race KW is built using the V3 body with different valving and springs etc. I have found the hardware to be a bit lightweight and their 3 way kit which is unique is nearly $8,000 with taxes (I would rather buy Ohilins for less).



Does anyone have any experience with the Koni 28 series. Looking at the price and spec at Paragons, it looks great kit for a medium price range.



With regard to the Bilstein, am I right in saying it is the Escort Cup or is it something else ?



Thanks for your help.



TC

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[Rudolf968]

Hoi Vaino,



Do you use the standard springs of the KW V3 package ? Did you keep the torsion bar OEM without re-indexing. I'am curious about that because I'm considering to buy me the KW V3 sinds some time, but best spring set-up in the rear isn't clear yet for me. The car is used for only street use. (1994 cab without MO30).



thanks

<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/mellow.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/blink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

tc17 - not the 28, but i'm just about to change to the 30 series from the yellow sports - i'll let you know



rudolf - i should have a rear adjustable fluid shock with coilover conversion kit available soon - just sourcing out one last component, and then it will be ready for the market - it will NOT require reindexing - simple bolt in process - the prototype is on dan sandru's car now, and he love's it

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[vnarma]

[quote name='Rudolf968' post='43224' date='Nov 6 2007, 03:57 AM']Hoi Vaino,



Do you use the standard springs of the KW V3 package ? Did you keep the torsion bar OEM without re-indexing. I'am curious about that because I'm considering to buy me the KW V3 sinds some time, but best spring set-up in the rear isn't clear yet for me. The car is used for only street use. (1994 cab without MO30).



thanks

<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/mellow.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/blink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />[/quote]



I am using the standard spring and have kept the rear torsion bar. It is slightly soft to some peoples taste. I have gone for heavy swaybars, and heavy damping and the KW3 springs. I find the ability to maintain traction over the bumpy course is a fine line against maintaining a spring rate which prevents bottoming out and infinite spring rate! So far so good, but I may need to look toward a slightly heavier rate set oin the coming years.

Stock worked out to 300fr/340r effective rate if I recall correctly.



Do you have a good source for spring for the KW bodies?

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[Rudolf968]

Vaino,

In Belgium there is an P 968 racing with springs from Eibach in combination with Bilstein shocks.

I'm not a specialist, but I have got the specs of his Eibach springs :

front main = ERS-D-140-60-220 with front helper = ERS-40-60-30

rear main = ERS-D-140-60-250 with rear helper = ERS 60-60-30

I don't know if they fit on the KW V3 neither if the rear springs are in combination with the torsion bar.



Flash,

I'm interested in your suspension development. But can you offer a complete set (rear + front).

Do you have already any pictures, price indication, what brand of shock and springs ???

In the meanwhile, nothing is urgent for me, so I will waiting to buy the KW's untill you can publish your suspension proposal. I appriciate your "inventions".

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[flash]

not likely unless i can find a dual adjustable fluid strut - i think i will be stuck with gas up front



i have deliberatly excluded all gas shocks for the rear, as i prefer fluid shocks back there - gas preload presents undesireable jitteryness - been there bounced that - MUCH happier now that i changed to fluid



i'll release the complete info as soon as i am done nailing it all down - shouldn't be very long - almost done now

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[Ben_968CS]

I ran the last 2 years with Bilstein racing suspension and it has been great. However, I now experience the lack of adjustability, flexibility and it looks like I have exhausted the possibilities of this suspension. Later this year I will be switching to fully adjustable Itrax suspension. Costs are significant (about USD 7,500), but laptimes are expected to decrease with about 1 tot 2 seconds on a 2.00 lap and much more flexiblity as far as track conditions are concerned.

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[flash]

found my dual adjustable hydraulic front struts - now have dual adjustable hydraulic all around, having already done the rear and loving it - car now back on the ground with 400# springs up front with 600# in the rear - will be road testing this week

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[333pg333]

What would be ideal is if some organisation like a magazine I guess did a really good review of all these brands on identical cars or swapped them over.

I have KW 2-way race and think they're excellent but I can't really comment on the other brands so I'm not sure how helpful I can be. They do allow you to glide over ripples, bumps, Gators etc while maintaining their composure. They do allow me to use 616f/708r on the road with mostly metal bushings and Rspec rubber. They have given me at least 2 seconds a lap improvement on 2 different tracks. They do seem to propel you forwards as if you've gone from an open diff to a Motorsport LSD as they do increase the traction markedly. They're made largely of stainless steel. Not sure what else I can say.

I bought these because many people had recommended them and I guess that's the closest you can get to an actual review.

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[Torbjorn968]

[quote name='Vaino' post='42793' date='Oct 23 2007, 11:22 AM']I can't speak from experience on the Moton (Have a couple of friends that love them), but on back to back runs of my KWs versus a nearly identical car with Leda, I'd take the KWs anyday.[/quote]



Interrested in the reason for the preference. My car is fitted with LEDAs to the specification by a Swedish race engineer (Jonas Jarlmark) with 800 lbs springs forward and 1000 lbs to the rear. Since I am new to the game I am happy as a clam on the track (no references), on street the setup is, well, hard.



T

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[Jim Child]

[quote name='Torbjorn968' post='47137' date='Feb 9 2008, 10:35 PM']Interrested in the reason for the preference. My car is fitted with LEDAs to the specification by a Swedish race engineer (Jonas Jarlmark) with 800 lbs springs forward and 1000 lbs to the rear. Since I am new to the game I am happy as a clam on the track (no references), on street the setup is, well, hard.



T[/quote]



I run on LEDA's too. My car is very competitive in the classes in which it runs with lots of victories and podiums. It also holds the track record at Mid Ohio in its NASA class.

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[Mark]

[quote name='Jim Child' post='47138' date='Feb 9 2008, 05:57 PM']My car is very competitive in the classes in which it runs[/quote]



Understatement of the year so far, of course the driver is a great part of that. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[Torbjorn968]

[quote name='Jim Child' post='47138' date='Feb 9 2008, 11:57 PM']I run on LEDA's too. My car is very competitive in the classes in which it runs with lots of victories and podiums. It also holds the track record at Mid Ohio in its NASA class.[/quote]



What spring rates are you running?



My car is 800/1000 lb in combination with 3 degrees of cambar all around and 255s all around. Standard M 030 Arb's set to hardest at the rear. The LEDA dampers have custom caracteristics (will try to find out a bit) to the specs of the race engineer responsible for the original setup. For me this still feels a bit to understeery.



I had a dinner with the race engineer in question and he suggested that the standar recepie of going even harder on the aft arb might not be the thing, he felt that the forward arb might be to soft and keep the car from settling in correctly on turn in (dinner was a couple of months ago, I am an amateur and the wine was good, end disclaimer..). He also suggested to go to four degrees up front rather than reducing camber aft.



//TL

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[Jim Child]

[quote name='Torbjorn968' post='47164' date='Feb 10 2008, 12:33 PM']My car is 800/1000 lb in combination with 3 degrees of cambar all around and 255s all around. Standard M 030 Arb's set to hardest at the rear. The LEDA dampers have custom caracteristics (will try to find out a bit) to the specs of the race engineer responsible for the original setup. For me this still feels a bit to understeery.[/quote]



I run 800 lbs up front, with various rates in the rear depending on what track I'm running. -3.0 degrees is a lot of camber in the rear. Don't you have problems putting the power down?

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[Torbjorn968]

[quote name='Jim Child' post='47199' date='Feb 10 2008, 10:36 PM']I run 800 lbs up front, with various rates in the rear depending on what track I'm running. -3.0 degrees is a lot of camber in the rear. Don't you have problems putting the power down?[/quote]



I will see if I can sqeeze some logic out of the previous owner and the Race engineer in question. His team was second on the Swedish Touring Car Chamionship and he has done a lot of the Swedisn Porsche Championship 968s so there should be some reasonable logic here. I think. Advice has been keeping camber att the rear and perhaps increasing to 4 degrees at the front.



I am a rockie so this is the disclaiimer for what is coming. Swedish tracks are generally rather twisty and I would think the amount of camber at the rear helps when putting power on onthe way out of a corner (car has an LSD keeping the innerwheel undercontrol. With no references I would say I find understeer in sharp corners more of a problem, Ondly a few corners give power oversteer. Since I do not race wheelspin in 1st and 2nd during starts is not a problem.



T

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