[dave968]

I am upgrading my Bilstein Firehawk suspension by adding the Escort Cup rear coilovers.

Is anyone running the softer valved front struts 380/150 with the rear coilovers 565/218, or instead using the stiff front struts 600/190?

My car will be track only and after 20 some driver eds, I may do some PCA Club racing.

My other option is to go with the Leda double adjustable rear shocks without the remote gas reservoirs, then in the future change over to the Leda struts.

I will also be putting in the Racers Edge spherical bearings in the rear, caster block in the front, and either Delrin spring plate bushings or the Elephant Racing polybronze bushings.

Any thoughts about which spring plate bushings to choose?

I am initially going with front springs 650 lbs and rear ~575 lbs, with torsion bar turned down or unweighted.

Thanks for any advice!

Dave

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[RS Barn]

Hello, Slow down.

You need to ballance front and rear and descide if you are setting up for track or street/track.

You don't want to have Bilstein and Leda combo. Bilstein's are high presure shocks and Leda's are oil shocks with no pressure.

You also need to balance spring rate with damping.

let me know what you have in mind and I can help.

Pete

RS Barn.com

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[Eric_K]

I'm using the 600/190 struts so I can't comment on using the softer struts. I think you would be better off spending the extra money and getting a set of struts & shocks that are designed to work together.



I'm using and would recommend the polybronze spring plate bushings. They are really nice. The spring plate moves sooo smoothly and they won't squeak.



FWIW, I run 550# front and 700# rear (no torsion bars).



Eric

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[Graham]

Rear suspension is my next job.



I'm going to strip it all down as I want to remove the gearbox anyway



I'll then have it stripped and powder coated



I will probably go with the polybushes as well as I don't want it squeaking.



Graham

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[Dave]

Graham - Don't recall if you have a cage in there. If not, consider this.



I had to drop the gas tank to weld mine in. To drop the tank, had to drop the gearbox. Anyway, if there's welding to be done in proximity to the gas tank, you may be heading into a convenient time to do it "while you're in there".



Dave968 - I have to second the polybronze recommendation above. They are smooth as silk. I had mine fitted with grease fittings since I drive the racecar all year (pretty gunky here in the Chicago area).

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[frogisland]

I have the 565/218 & 600/190, with 350# rear, 600# front. Rides well, very flat on track but always thought front needs to be that little stiffer maybe 700#. I have torsions still, reindexed.



JP

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[Jason Judd]

I have the Bilstien Cup suspension in my car...700# on all corners. I'm not sure if I should have something lighter up front actually.



Definately not something you want to drive on the local roads.



Jason

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[968evo]

Hi! I´m going to run #800 Lbs front and #1100-1200 Lbs rear.



But I live in Sweden and I think our racetracks are a bit smoother <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



/Björn

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[flash]

there is a whole thing going on right now about spring rates and the front to rear proportions



i am trying to ascertain, by means of lap time comparisons, which one is right



having played with a few different rear rates now, albeit in street trim only, i have to tell you that, so far, i am leaning on having heavier front springs than rear, but only by 25-50lbs effective rate



and yes, i am factoring in the effective ratio



this is a concern to me, because i am about to change my springs out yet again, and am trying to determine which way i am going - i really only want to do this one more time on this street car



i have no torsion bars, and 250 in the rear on carrera adjustable shocks, and tech art/eibach progressive final 250s on the front on konis - i have bumped my effective rear ratio from the stock .65 to .70 via geometry changes - damping has seen its best balance at 60% front and 50% rear



i am considering 250 front and 300 rear - pete thinks i should run 350 front, but that just seems too stiff by comparison - maybe somewhere in the middle - i have had 350 in the rear and got trounced all over the road (remember - street car)



jason, you have equal springs - why? i assume you went the route of everybody else first (effective rate front heavy) - what changes did you see in lap times?

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[Jason Judd]

Flash,



Remember we took a lot of weight out of the car...much of it was up front. Headlight assemblies, H/V/AC system, carbon fiber hood and fenders, and that big chunk of aluminum in the bumper area to name a few things. Gutted the doors, removed the heavy carpeting and put in light weight perlon (sp?) type carpeting.



We're around 2,600 lbs at this point.



If you want to fool around with springs, I have my old 450lbs springs available for sale. But I think they are longer because they are set up for the Billstein Cup struts. I'd let the set of 4 go for $200.



Jason

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[Eric_K]

i have no torsion bars, and 250 in the rear on carrera adjustable shocks, and tech art/eibach progressive final 250s on the front on konis - i have bumped my effective rear ratio from the stock .65 to .70 via geometry changes - damping has seen its best balance at 60% front and 50% rear

Flash, are you talking 250 actual spring rate or effective rate at the rear?



IMHO, the car needs higher actual spring rates in the rear to overcome the lower effective rate and to help get rid of the gobs of understeer the car comes with. What creates a lower lap time and comfort on the street are on the opposite ends of the scale. What feels right on the street may be a pig out on the track.



For the track, I set the gross balance with the springs (currently 550f, 700r), fine tune it with the f/r sway bar settings and make minute adjustments via tire pressures. Once you are close to the ballpark with spring rates you shouldn't have to change them that much.



250 sounds soft to me, but I like go karts!



Eric

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[flash]

actual rate



i agree 250 is soft - i've always felt i went a bit soft there, compared to my final rate in the front - the progressives were a tough thing to balance - the initial rate felt great with the 250 rear, but at full load, when the spring went to 250, the rear, which had an effective final rate of 175, even though i was 100lbs light in the rear, still meant that i only had what would be acting like about 190#



so, i decided to stiffen up the rear - i am really thinking 300# springs is going to be what i want for the street - that would crunch, after calculating for my changed geometry and weight, to about 225 - i don't think the shocks i have will handle much more than that without compromising ride - they are only single adjustable



the real question is the front

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[Eric_K]

I would settle on a front spring first. You can then mess with finding a rear rate that works for you. Then you only need to buy 2 springs at a time and don't need to mess with the front strut and alignment. Paragon can get you hypercoils in just about any diameter, length and rate.



Eric

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[flash]

thanks for the responses guys



the rear is my bigger concern, and the reason for the change - with the new power, i am now really squatting the rear end under load - it was always a bit soft at the limits, but now it really shows up



i'm not really worried about doing them all at once - i have to go back in for some changes anyway - i need to reduce the front toe by a tenth of a degree, increase the front camber by a tenth, and reduce the rear toe - we tried a couple of thngs that didn't pan out the way i wanted them to - thankfully i get alignments at a great rate - i've already had 8 in the past 2 years - finally getting close to what i think will be the specs i want



besides, i'm ready to go with adjustable fronts anyway - i'm ready to give up a bit of intial rate comfort to gain full corner balance capability, and maybe a bit more final rate - i'm really pretty cool though with the front ride, so i don't want to stray too far from that - i've driven a car with 400 or 450 rates up front, and while i didn't think it was too terribly harsh when playing with it, i did think that it would be a bit much on a weekend wine run, so i'm pretty sure that's too far for this car's intended use - i'm only looking for a ride that's maybe 25% - 50% stiffer than stock, and balanced for street - i'm fairly sure 300 or so will give that to me in the rear - now just trying to figure out the front



i knew about paragon, but i won't be using hypercoils - besides, i went around with paragon over spring returns the last time, and while in the end everything was fine, it was just too much effort - they won't let me install them, see if i like them, and then return them if i didn't - i understand that, but i also don't want a shelf full of springs figuring it out



eibach is a long time sponsor of mine, so i will be sticking to them, even though i may end up just buying this set of springs, due to time constraints, but more importantly, i have a relationship with a vendor that will let me try as many as i want, and only pay for one set

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[Matt Marks]

Flash (or anyone),



Do yourself a favor and get the max adjustibility you can get in your shocks - even if you have to spend 400-500 more. Love the escort cups on my 944, but I'm totally locked in on the valving. Spend the extra cash and get the Leda's or Moton's or whatever so you can actually tune the car. I'm going to have to junk my escorts over the winter to get something that is tuneable - as it's costing my time on the track vs. my competition.



Otherwise, by the time you realize you need a change, you're going to have to pull the shocks and send them to bilstein to be revalved at the cost of a couple of hundred bucks plus an alignment, and even then it's a guess at what the valving should be.

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[flash]

i'm trying to draw a line on this car - this is the street car - i'm focusing on not crossing the line and trying to make one car do both jobs - the race car will get ledas or something like that for sure, and i'm just about ready to start looking for the chassis to get started on that one, so i should be able to more easily keep their duties seperated in my head at that point



the ones i have now are "adjustable" but only have one knob that does both adjustments - i'm pretty happy with them, but there are definitely limits

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