[Rap]

Good read. Except for the weening from meetings. People who stay with meetings have a better probability of staying sober.

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[flash]

can't say you're wrong, but i've seen quit a few people cut it way down to occasional, and do just fine.

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[Rap]

Yes although I didn't say it couldn't happen it's been my experience for the latter. In fact for those that relapse it happens when the meetings stop. Much is changing in my world as the industry looks to dumb down its definitions and expectations to meet insurance and financial needs.

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[flash]

i can certainly see how relapse would happen without reinforcement.  if you start with a straw house, you can blow it down pretty easily.  if you start with a brick house, less maintenance is required.

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[ds968]

Is this shifting into an alcoholics rehabilitation thread now ?  I thought this was an intervention thread to convert religious addicts back into normal people     Although there is a tie-in ; you have to be completely plastered to honestly believe in a "God"...as depicted in mythical stories, anyway..     

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[Rap]

mythical?

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[flash]

myth

 

1.  a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events

 

2.  a widely held but false belief or idea

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[ds968]

Precisely that : mythical.  I'm not talking about Jesus the MAN ( and prophet ..), I'm taking about associating him with a so-called divinity, "god", etc. of which there is not only a single shred of proof to support that nonsense, but everything surrounding the myth has been categorically dismissed as pure man-made fantasy, and nothing more than a feel-good emotional crutch.  Just because there are billions of people that believe in the myth does not make it any more factual. There are billions of other people who believe in multiple gods, some which are in half-creature form and have vast powers, etc..  So are they the delusional ones, but the Christian God, the old man who created earth and all the galaxies in the universe, one man who sees all, controls all, is all powerful, has a plan for everything that happens, and resides in heaven ...is the true divinity which drives faith ?!   What's amusing to me is that individuals who bring up the possibility of extra-terrestrial life / intelligent life among the other billions, and billions, and billions of solar systems etc. are viewed as nutcases, yet that scenario has far more plausibility than what religion claims. I'm not saying that I'm one of those folks; in that sense I'm entirely agnostic : I don't know what's out there and I frankly could not care less, but I come to their defense when pitted against someone who believes a single word of the fairy tales taught by the " good books " or whats being professed in churches, temples, mosques, and similar places of worship.  My $ 0.02.   p.s  It's a clear, sunny day here in the Bay Area, so if you guys read of any sudden thunder and lightning strikes hitting a 968, it'll prove God is lurking on the forum and reading my posts..                                   

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[94SilverCab]

... p.s  It's a clear, sunny day here in the Bay Area, so if you guys read of any sudden thunder and lightning strikes hitting a 968, it'll prove God is lurking on the forum and reading my posts..                                   

Not possible, he hasn't posted an introduction...and refuses to call his 968 a "hardtop".

 

Jay

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[968Syncro]

Is this shifting into an alcoholics rehabilitation thread now ?  I thought this was an intervention thread to convert religious addicts back into normal people        

AA actually is a religion, most people don't know it.  They define their own god who is focused on keeping people sober, and AA has only one purpose which is to worship that god.  And the only way an AA member can stay sober is to find that god (or alternatively they let you define a door knob as your "higher power").  AA is "faith healing" and nothing more, kinda like in the movies:  "oh lordy lordy, , I can't walk!".    "OK come to the front and praise the lord I'll make you walk" (leave some bucks in the basket please).    It is a religious cult that does more harm than good -- I suspect that the growing expose of Scientology will soon be followed by continued exposure of AA for what it really is.

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[ds968]

I'll raise a glass and toast to that ..

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[Rap]

I respectfully disagree. I have spent 20 years in the treatment business. I trust no one and am skeptical of everything. AA is not a cult. I wouldn't be caught dead with a cult or anything suggestive of cultish ness . Anoyminity is the fault here . If more knew what the truth of AA is and how it works, not the pyseudo or media suggested understanding, folks would understand it's a viable solution. Is it the only one? No of course not. But why would any intelligent individual pass on a solution to a disease that works? Perhaps ignorance?

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[flash]

it's not really a solution to a disease.  it just substitutes one dependency for another.

 

i'm not convinced that it's really a disease either.  i think it's more just weakness of mind.  we tend to call all sorts of things diseases, so as to make it easier on ourselves.  we all have a choice as to whether to act upon an impulse or not.  it's really only a case of will.  you can control most bodily functions, if you know how.  i can alter my heart rate at will, because i learned how.  does that mean that those who can't have a disease?  hardly.  nobody wants to admit they are weak though, so i get it.  whatever helps people sleep at night i suppose.

 

that doesn't mean that treatment centers aren't useful, as they can teach you how to deal with those impulses.  the same goes for programs like AA.

 

the problem i have seen with AA is that they tend to be sanctimonious, and think everybody else is an alcoholic.  this comes from their mantra.  they drill it into their heads, just like a cult.  the reality is that some of us can have a drink, and not need another.  but you can't tell them that.

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[968Syncro]

I have spent 20 years in the treatment business.

Thank you, that's a big part of the problem -- the treatment / rehab "business" is over 90% AA-based which apparently you've confirmed.   (and quite profitable). 

 

We can argue forever, but let's keep it simple. Within the context of this thread, which is concerned with religion, please answer two questions:

 

1.  Is AA a god-based treatment method?  (Yes or No) ___________

 

2.  As an expert, what other treatments methods do you also recommend?  _______________

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[Rap]

Flash, the folks I know realize and admit some can have one drink and stop while others can't.

Not quite sure what you mean by God based, but no. Treatment is not based upon a belief in God. One could just stop as Flash recommends. Medical management is a growing trend in the industry.

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[ds968]

Here's a case study : me. My parents started serving me wine ( diluted with club soda / sparkling water in it ) at family dinners since I was about 10 years old. While in college I never drank more than an occasional beer or an occasional glass of wine with meals and never drank just for the sale of drinking and getting a buzz. Certainly no binge drinking. Nor have I tried any drugs either, as a substitute for drinking. After college I made a habit of drinking a shot or two of cognac or tequila every day , and a glass of wine with dinner or the occasional lunch when I go out to lunch, and that habit continues to this very day. One thing I have in common with flash is that I also just drink wine or liquor for their taste, not for their effect. That's probably why I don't drink martinis or vodka - vodka has zero taste, so what would be the point drinking it, other than to get a buzz ?! I think because of this " conditioning " that started when I was about ten, even if I have three glasses of wine at a sitting , or four or five shots of brandy or tequila or scotch in a day, it has little effect if any on me in terms of getting buzzed. But I stop well ahead of that point. I have never been drunk, I have never had a hangover in my 58 years . Now, in spite of that long standing habit of drinking every day, last year when my liver enzymes reading was slightly above the standard values, my doctor advised me to stop drinking completely for three months, not a drop of alcohol she said . And I did, just like that ! I did not experience withdrawals of any kind, and the desire to taste a drink was simply overcome by the will not to do so. It was not difficult at all. Once my enzymes returned to normal three months later, I went back to my daily tastings. Does that mean that everybody can simply quit at any time and those who are alcoholics need therapy because they just do not have the willpower to control their urges ? I don't know the answer to that as I'm sure everyone is different and everyone's metabolism and reaction to alcohol is different , but just wanted to share one scenario here, close and personal to me LOL, here for whatever it may be worth ..

And no I did not need God to help me stop drinking for those three months, I used something more powerful than " he " could ever be : my will :-) :-)

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[Rap]

Your 58?    Sheesh!

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[flash]

his 58 what? - oh - did you mean "you're"?  sheesh!

 

poke poke

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[Rap]

Who is poking who?

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[ds968]

Staying on the religion tone, I have to admit that I had a religious experience today. Will post it on a more appropriate thread , if I find one , but it is car related .

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