[rhudeboye]

What do you think about.380HP Porsche that avg 28MPG?





http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alte...ewall.html

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[Cloud9...68]

Just not a hybrid fan - too much added weight and complexity for my taste. Maybe I'll be proven wrong in the end, as the manufacturers may all end up having to go to hybrid drives across the board to meet the tough upcoming mileage standards, but I prefer a simple, lightweight car with a conventional powerplant. Everything the Panamera Hybrid isn't.

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[ds968]

i can be talked into driving this hybrid. even if it is a cab. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/glare.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



   



   

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[Cloud9...68]

Yeah, I understand that this car is a technological tour-de-force, but again, why does a car have to be so complex?

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[rhudeboye]

I think it’s a generation thing. I bet when turbos came on the scene a good number of auto enthusiasts were put off by the concept. Todays fast cars are complex with and without batteries. Fact is, all of those computer aided controls reap great benefits. Another car that's not popular here is the Nissan GTR. A heavy car that breaks all the rules but, from what I read, is a blast to drive and is very safe to drive at speed. It produces remarkable lap times at the hands of an average driver.



I can appreciate the feel of a pure driving machine as the rest of you do, but variety’s cool to.

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[Cloud9...68]

Well put. Yes, it's inevitable that cars will continue to get more and more complex to meet mileage and safety requirements, and to satisfy consumers' desires. For me, the ideal new car is the Subaru BRZ. But then, that car is admittedly orders of magnitude more complex than cars that I grew up with. Who knows, maybe someday I'll even own a hybrid...

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[Rap]

Change is good. Would we still like to be driving some of those crappy cars from the 70's?

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[ds968]

[quote name='Rap' timestamp='1347011140' post='132281']Change is good. Would we still like to be driving some of those crappy cars from the 70's?[/quote]



Indeed ! Even the most iconic cars of the 70s ( and I had one - 440 'cuda ) would feel like total crap now....

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[rhudeboye]

I wonder if hybrid motors will become the new turbo? P-918 & NSX. If you ever drive one of the higher end sport hybrids, the push you get when the electric motor kicks in feels like a turbo. Depending on the out put of the elec motor, could feel much stronger. The benefit of all that torque does wonders coming out of corners and making quick passes.

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[ds968]

I'm going to drive one of my co-worker's new Tesla sedan next week ( the higher-end model, with the larger battery ) She said the same thing about the " turbo " effect. Not sure what the torque is, I am under the impression it's more than 400 ft/lbs in that particular model but it would be interesting to see how the power rush reconciles with the whine of a sewing machine, instead of the roar of a real engine's exhaust note.

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[Lear35A]

Electric, gas, whatever. Please excuse me but I think the Panamera is ugly. I was at a German dealer party the day they introduced the thing (the dealers there were required to have such a party). I happily drank the beer and ate the hors d'oeuvres. I thought it was ugly then, but I understand that some designs grow on you. However, a couple of years later I still don't like it.

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[bombfactory]

Here's where the Panamera got its ugly from:



   

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[Cloud9...68]

Wow, that's nasty. Never was a 928 fan to begin with, but that thing is really gross.



Yes, I know we have to accept that cars are going to continue to get more and more complicated, and I fully agree that most of the "simple" cars of yesteryear are indeed true crap. But I don't understand why a machine with a really simple purpose needs an enormous battery pack that wipes out half your trunk, two motors, and all the electronics and mechanical parts needed to keep everything working in harmony. And what bothers me the most about the hybrid approach is the weight that all this stuff adds. In comparison, a turbo only adds a few pounds.



I'm rooting for some dramatic improvements to the conventional internal combustion engine, several of which I've read some promising accounts of, to keep all this nonsense at bay, but recognize that hybrids are probably going to be a fact of life for a long time. But it's interesting that even with today's high gas prices, hybrid sales are still very poor, and really haven't picked up any steam. Also, I read a recent survey that a large majority of hybrid buyers wouldn't buy another one, which seems strange, considering that their reliability has been very good.

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[JWahlsten]

My biggest issue with the hybrids is weight. The P-918 is porky. I understand it is currently in the 3700 lb range. I don't care what technology you add, and how you tune the suspension, it's still a LOT of weight. Yes, it has power to match, as does the Panamera, but you have to accelerate and stop that mass every time. You also can't deny the laws of physics in a corner. The only reason the cars handle at all is all the electronic aids. How much does the Panamera Hybrid weigh? Only 4400 lbs... The AWD version without the hybrid drive is 4000. At least it's still less than the SUV.



Regardless, the Panamera is ugly. I have no idea why people think it looks good as a design. It's better in dark colors with the larger wheels, but the base models in my opinion are just hideous.

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='JWahlsten' timestamp='1347191879' post='132411']

My biggest issue with the hybrids is weight. The P-918 is porky. I understand it is currently in the 3700 lb range. I don't care what technology you add, and how you tune the suspension, it's still a LOT of weight. Yes, it has power to match, as does the Panamera, but you have to accelerate and stop that mass every time. You also can't deny the laws of physics in a corner. The only reason the cars handle at all is all the electronic aids. How much does the Panamera Hybrid weigh? Only 4400 lbs... The AWD version without the hybrid drive is 4000. At least it's still less than the SUV.



Regardless, the Panamera is ugly. I have no idea why people think it looks good as a design. It's better in dark colors with the larger wheels, but the base models in my opinion are just hideous.

[/quote]

What he said...

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[flash]

lol - i LIKE the 928 wagon



hybrids are a patch at best. electric cars will be the next wave. they are already gaining ground fast. the problem most people have is battery capacity. they seem to get stuck on the idea that they need to be able to drive 300 miles on a charge in their commuter car. in reality 95% of the commuting public drives 60 miles or less each day. that makes it very easy for any of the electric cars to handle the job. the other problem is the environmental issues with making and disposing of the batteries, and their production cost. those would have to be worked out before it could really take over. the fisker has a solar panel roof that charges it during the day while you are at work. free fuel? how cool is that?



as for the panamera, i can't stand it. i wish they went with the 989 instead.

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[tamathumper]

I want me some Fisker...

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[Cloud9...68]

I agree that electric cars seem to have a lot going for them - as the owner of five older cars, the idea of a car with no oil, filters, belts, hoses, cooling system, fuel system, etc. to worry about is very appealing. I'm puzzled as to why they haven't done better in the market yet, as sales of pure electrics have been abysmal, and are actually dropping now that the affluent early adopters have largely made their purchases. I think the problem most people have with them is that their limited range, especially in cold weather, relegates them to single-purpose vehicles, and their high price tag is a lot for a lot of people to stomach for a car they can't take out of town on weekends. With so many people struggling to make ends meet every month, a $40,000 single-purpose car is simply out of reach for most people, even if that purpose covers 90% of their needs. Hopefully, as the price of batteries comes down, this will change, as I would love to see alternatives to gas-power cars on the road.



As far as the solar panel on the roof, I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation on that awhile back, and found that, given the surface area and the efficiency of solar cells, there's barely enough electricity generated to power the car's AC. It's nothing but a feel-good marketing gimmick.

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[flash]

actually, sales are climbing fast. almost every manufacturer now is making one. even an abysmal 6% increase is a big jump if you think about any other product increasing sales



yes, the precept of "limited range" scares people off. they are used to longer range, but don't realize that they really don't need it. asking it to be a single car presents itself as a marketing problem, but that can be overcome. it will just take really taking a look at how you drive. for example, other than last week and the ortega run, i had not ventured out more than 7 miles in over 2 months. i could easily have done it all in an electric car. same goes for the wife. she commutes 32 miles a day round trip. that would be a no brainer.



i was at the lab where they designed and implemented the panels (it was the same place i did my CARB testing). i got the full tour. it does a whole lot more than that. it doesn't drive the car. it's not designed to do much while running. it just recharges when sitting.

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[Cloud9...68]

The real challenge for electric car makers is that the competition is a moving target. In a few years, conventional cars that get 50 real-world mpg without sacrificing much in the way of comfort and safety will be available to consumers. So, electric car makers are in a bit of a race against time - if they don't get costs down and range up in a hurry, it will be tough to convince consumers to consider a vehicle that costs $10K more and uses zero gas, vs. one that gets 50 mpg and can be driven anywhere, anytime.



Don't misunderstand - I like the concept of electric cars (or coal-burners, as some sarcastically call them), and I agree that they fit the needs of the majority of drivers. It will be interesting to watch this thing play out. I'm hoping to see some really innovative advancements come out of it, and hopefully some cars that are actually fun to drive.

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