[H2Ojazz]

Going well, just did Zone 1. Starting to get the "make it a track car" itch. A slippppeerrrrryyyy slope!

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[pmcrespo]

In an effort to make the car lighter........... I just need how to hang them wheels.... maybe magnets.......



Just kidding... finally upgrading rear suspension..... removing all rubber and torsion... sticking with the Bilsteins for now...



   

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[pmcrespo]

As some of you already know, the news are pretty bad. I had a serious crash during Sunday's NASA's race qualifying at Pocono South.



Even though some of us seriously avoid talking, thinking, viewing, or otherwise acknowledging serious racing "incidents", I am making an exception to thank all that have extended emails and calls with support and encouragement. Your actions are priceless. Simply invaluable.



The cause of the accident was a broken/sheared front suspension ball joint pin. Once it failed there was nothing I could do but hang on and go along for the ride. On failure, during a fast left hander coming off the Nascar banking into the infield section, the front left toed-in and under. The nose snapped right and headed straight to the barrier/wall at maybe 70-80 mph. Severe impact, no tire wall. The car is effectively totaled with the tub bent badly. I am technically unhurt thanks to the safety system working to perfection inclusive of the R3 Hybrid head and neck restraint I was wearing.



I personally find very few positives in this. But one is indeed how we all need to ensure we check those critical suspension parts more often. Ball joint pins, hubs, tie rods, are crucial. Especially in cars being tracked and/or raced. Make sure you check them as often as practical and at least replace the pins once per season as a minimum. If my terrible experience can preempt a similar incident from occurring in the future, then great things will have come out of it.



Also, if you are tracking or racing, do not cut corners in safety, and please, wear a Head & Neck restraint system. Any one you'd like. But use one.



The race car was working flawlessly. After a 2-month period, it was back from its UTCC abuse with a fresh head gasket and upgraded with full race rear suspension, trick cams, extra trick head, worked intake manifold, and larger throttle body, all done by RS Barn. Custom tuned at the dyno with some of the highest non-turbo rwhp numbers we have seen to date. The setup was working simply perfect, and it was obvious the car was ready to be a top contender in NASA's GTS3 race series. It had taken a podium every time out inclusive of the UTCC and after Sunday, it was likely that we would have been leading the NASA NE GTS Points standings.



We will somehow overcome the obvious obstacles to rebuild and be back racing soon. I will certainly keep you posted....



PS: If you really MUST see pictures of the car, e-mail me and I'll send some to you. I truly do not want to post them... one of those things.... call me superstitious....



   



   

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[PorscheDude]

Pablo,

I really am speechless, I am just glad to hear you were not injured.



Sounds like you and RS Barn built an incredible car.

Besides the performance, it seems alot of thought went into safety systems.

Your walking away uninjured is testament to the build quality.



I am sure you will rebound and be back stronger next season.



Best of Luck and keep us updated



Patrick

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[Mark]

Wow, very sorry to hear about this but glad you walked away "technically unhurt". Seriously bummed for you and the car.

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[pmcrespo]

Thank you guys. The car was really strong across the board. From safety to performance.



There are really no words to express how I am feeling. To have been doing so well in my rookie year, and to have it all be shattered by a failure at exactly the worst possible moment in the worst possible place. its just not supposed to go down like that.... I know all the arguments, the known risks we take and the probability games, but it is still incredibly painful. Anger does not even start to describe.... And unfortunately, I keep beating myself up as to the things that i could have done different to somehow avoid it or prhaps postpone it resulting in a different and better outcome....



But it is what it is... I am glad I walked away and did not take another racer out.



I am not all that sure how, but I'll be back....



Again, thank you for all the kind words, support and encourageent....

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[flash]

not to rub an already sore wound, but as a rookie, did this mess with your driver status?

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[pmcrespo]

[quote name='flash' post='58451' date='Aug 27 2008, 07:50 PM']...as a rookie, did this mess with your driver status?[/quote]



It did in a way. Not too bad though. Sunday's race would have been my 4th official NASA race under the Provisional License which would have graduated me to a full License and no longer a "Rookie" as defined by the rulebook. I will still achieve full status after the next race.... as long as I do not wait too long.... And since the "Incident" happened during qualifying and not a race, I don't get any bad "remarks" in the driver's rookie permit log.



The car's logbook got dinged pretty bad though.....

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[wonko]

Pablo,



Sorry to hear about this. I have been following your car with great interest, and am sad for you. Glad you are doing well though.



I know how you feel as I just totaled the yellow Firehawk car two weeks ago, Saturday. Mine wasn't mechanical, rather, I went on the paint coming out of turn one on the East track at Miller Motorsports Park and brought the rear end around. Another car thought I would go wide and tried to go under me. Unfortunately I stopped dead, and in trying to correct he lost his rear and kind of reverse T-boned me. My front forks took the brunt of the wreck pushing the shock towers back several inches and buckling the foot box. The engine should be able to be salvaged, but the chassis is toast. I think it was just one more hit than the old gray mare could take.



Several months ago my dad had an A-arm pin failure similar to yours in the red 968. Fortunately his happened just before getting onto the main straight at Miller. We are running the Fabcar arms in that car. In looking at the broken pin, it was clear that it had been damaged for some time. The break was in three very distinct zones. The first part, about a third of the way through was obviously old. It actually had a bit of a patina to it. The second zone was much newer, but still clean. The next and final zone was much more crystalline in its structure. My analysis is that the pin was originally broken some time before. Perhaps even as long ago as back when it ran the series. The second break most likely happened when my dad had a brush with the tire barrier at California Speedway going from the oval to the infield at the beginning of the season. From there it was probably just metal fatigue from normal running. There is a hard series of turns just before the main straight (starting with the Clubhouse Turn) at Miller that is relatively low speed, but high g's . This probably is why it broke before the straight.



The break was just inside the spindle, so no visual check would have caught it without actually removing the pin. In other words, and this should just be general practice now for everyone: hange the pins regularly even if they don't look like they need it. It is a cheap insurance policy. I would also recommend inspecting them via removal in the event of a significant impact or off. It takes time and effort, but it can prevent catastrophic failure of the component.



Again, Pablo, glad to hear you are doing well. Yours sounds like it was a bit more energetic than my shunt, but in either case they aren't fun.



John

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[wonko]

Being a bit less superstitious, I already posted a couple of pics on another forum. Don't see why I shouldn't do the same here.

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[flash]

just makes me want to cry

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[Eric_K]

Wow, what an unfortunate turn this thread took. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> Sorry for the losses but I'm glad no one was injured.



I too had a ball joint pin shear in May. Luckily, I escaped with just some minor fender damage. It was just pure luck that I didn't hit something. Just as in John's case, the pin had obviously been damaged previously. It had taken a couple of hits. It had distinct zones as it cracked over time. But the crack was hidden inside the spindle so I never saw it. This was on a Charlie Arm. Inspection is good advice!



Pablo - what arm is that?

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[wonko]

[quote name='Eric_K' post='58472' date='Aug 27 2008, 10:34 PM']Wow, what an unfortunate turn this thread took. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> Sorry for the losses but I'm glad no one was injured.



I too had a ball joint pin shear in May. Luckily, I escaped with just some minor fender damage. It was just pure luck that I didn't hit something. Just as in John's case, the pin had obviously been damaged previously. It had taken a couple of hits. It had distinct zones as it cracked over time. But the crack was hidden inside the spindle so I never saw it. This was on a Charlie Arm. Inspection is good advice!



Pablo - what arm is that?[/quote]



Really interesting. I think that it must be emphasized that inspection means actual removal of the pin. In both our cases the pins sheared inside the spindle, making outside observation next to useless. Glad you fared well. By dad only suffered some paint damage, and that was from opening the door while the wheel was pushing the fender. Otherwise all was well. It could have easily been far more.



Check them pins guys!



John

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[Jim Child]

I'm very sorry to hear about your car Pablo. I was looking forward to seeing it and meeting you at NASA Nationals. Obviously the most important thing is that you're OK. Race cars are expendable, race drivers are not. I know that probably doesn't make you feel any better about losing the car, but its still important to remember. Good luck in putting a new car together. The good news is that everything you learned in building the old car, and hopefully most of the go-fast parts will transfer over to a new car. In the end you'll likely end up with an even stronger car.



I too am interested in knowing what control arms you were using.



Eric, what kind of hits had yours taken? I'm also using Charlie Arms, and mine are overdue for an off-the-car inspection. A thread like this definitely provides the motivation to get that taken care of.

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[pmcrespo]

Thank you for the words of encouragement guys. It is indeed hard to find positives but there are some; no injuries, no other racers collected, and hopefully we'll prevent this from happening to any of you.



John: Pete did tell me about your incident. I was really bummed out to hear this as we have been following how great you guys have been doing at Miller. My apologies as I meant to get your info and call or e-mail but I never did get to it. I have not had the chance or fortitude to start thinking of dissasembling and pull out the pin for analysis. After reading some of the comments though, I will definitely do that.



Indeed one of the toughest things about the incident is that it happen at the exact most critical point in the track. Almost like the one and only spot where a severe crash was guaranteed. Anywhere else and I would have probably come out without contact or with minor sheetmetal damage.



We installed the Kokeln Racing A-arms last year. What I just found out a few days ago was that when they came out they only offered a 17mm pin with them but now they have a 19mm pin option. If I was to speculate (which I am), I'd say that they have probably experienced failures in the 17s and were forced to upgrade. Unfortunately I did not know this. Understanding now that there may have indeed been a way to avoid the crash makes matters worse. Ultimately, I guess, I do not know if even with knowledge of the 19mm pin being available, I would have swapped now or waited until the end of the season. 20/20 is cruel.



Jim, I was also definitely looking forward to possibly making it to Nationals, meeting you, and all the GTS hot-shoes.... Hopefully next year.



YES!!!! Check your pins!



On the superstitious front: It has been a tough month for 968s. A good acquintance and former instructor of mine damaged his beautiful track 968 at the Glen going into the laces, then John's incident, and lastly mine. Hopefully this is it for the next 100 years.....

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[flash]

i have been watching this carefully over the years, and seen quite a few failures like this, with varying brands of arms and such - it is something i am paying close attention to right now as i am preparing to build a race car myself - plowing a wall due to front suspension failure is not something i want to repeat - been there wrecked that - i ran into exactly this problem with another car many moons ago - i learned a lot from it in what to do and what not to do in setup



one problem is the increased friction and load from the newer and much stickier tires - wider wheels and tires also exacerbate this - this makes the connecting components work much harder, and the loads they must bear increase geometrically



it also confirms something i have been saying all along - geometry is critical - lowering the car too far creates a mechanical leverage increase on the ball joint - take a look at the control arm angle relative to the ground at rest - at most it should be parallel to the ground and NOT have the outside point (ball joint) higher than the inner mounting points - when it goes lower, you can see how it would increase load on the ball joint



lower is not always better



if you are going to lower the car so far that the roll center is that low, which makes for other geometrical issues to begin with but we can discuss elsewhere, you will also need to transfer load back off of that outside front corner by means of springs, much larger swaybars, and rearward brake biasing - you can't plow 3000 lbs of car onto one corner like that, without serious reinforcement, and expect it not to fail - unfortunately this is going to mask the larger problem, and really reorientation of the suspension mounting is the correct thing to do - this may push you out of class though



either way, it isn't easy, and there are going to be complications and limits that will be run into



choice of materials of the pins and arms is going to be critical - regular and careful inspection of the pins is going to be extremely critical, and something i would do after every race

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[biotechee]

Scary stories indeed. To Pablo, Eric, John, and anyone else who gets into a situation like this... I am very thankful you are all OK. Like Jim said- cars are expendable, we are not.



Hang in there and I can't wait to drool over your new racer!

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[H2Ojazz]

Pablo,



I just read this today. Thank goodness you are OK. Thoughts are with you. Cars are replaceable, you are not.





Bill

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[redbaron]

Pablo, Eric and John,



As Flash indicated recently in one of his posts, I love 968s and to hear about 3 of them being put out of commission is very saddening. However, as stated by other, you each will live another day to drive another beautiful 968! Good luck in your search and look forward to hearing about your new wheels.



Don

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[wonko]

I am going to start another thread on the A arm issue. I think this is too critical a note to have get lost in the discussion on some other post.



Please place any further discussion of the A arm issues specifically in the new post.



It is at:



A-Arm Discussion Thread



John

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