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Need your Big Red expertise TODAY!!!
#1

Okay all you experts, I really need your help. I need to know if these part number rotors will work for a BR conversion: 993.351.043.01 and 993.351.044.01. They are the solid, drilled left and right rotors for a 993 Turbo.



I've got to get the car to the tuner for the conversion this week so I've got to know the real deal. Will the 993T rotors work or will I need to purchase the 965 rotors??? <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/unsure.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Thanks!

Dan
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#2

I think there is a little mixed up info here - i am sure the part numbers you refer to are the 'standard' 993 discs, i.e. for the S4 type calipers that the 993 uses on the front - these discs are a smaller diameter than the 99TT ones you refer to.



In using 993TT (2-piece with a separate top-hat) or 993RS (1-piece) (both are cross drilled) discs, their use depends on another factor - if you are using M030 spindles then no. This is because the 'top hats' of the 993TT/RS discs in comparison to the 965 discs is 5mm less deep, that is, the 993TT/RS discs will sit further out from the centre of the car. If you are using caliper adaptors, they often come with the caliper mounting holes offset on the face of the adapter by 5mm, this allows the use of either 965 or 993TT/RS discs - you simply turn the adapter over.



I use 993RS discs with my BR's, my caliper adaptors are the type with the offset holes.



Hope this helps



JP
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#3

the following should start you off to determine which discs you have from this



Measure the diameter of the disc, and measure the distance from the outer disc face to the top of the 'top hat'



928 GTS/965 are 322mm dia, 45mm top hat, 32mm thick

993TT/RS are 322mm dia, 40mm top hat, 32mm thick

standard 993 are 304mm dia, from memory i think 40mm top hat, 32mm thick

968 M030/928S4 are 304mm dia, from memory i think 45mm top hat, 32mm thick



If anyone knows different for the 'top hats' on the last two please advise.



993TT discs are two piece disc/top hat, cross drilled

993RS discs are 1 piece, cross drilled

965 discs - 1 piece cross drilled

standard 993 - cross drilled?

968 M030 1 piece cross drilled

928S4 1 piece solid

928 GTS 1 piece solid



All this is from memory - but have noted where i am not 100% sure



Also - are they Big Reds you have? Could they be S4/M030 calipers?



JP
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#4

Great info JP. Thanks!



My rotors are Zimmerman 1-piece, drilled, 304mm dia, 40mm top hat, 32mm thick, part number 993.351.043.01 and 993.351.044.01. So apparently they are the standard 993 rotor??? And if that's the case, it appears as though they won't work the same as the 965 rotors??? Correct?



The calipers are definitely from a 993TT.



I purchased the adapter blocks and mounting hardware from Paragon (Racers Edge) so the calipers should mount correctly without issues. But with those adapters, must a person use the 965 rotors or would it be possible to use the 993 part numbers from above?



Man, this is craaaazzzzy. I'm tempted to just sell the dang calipers and order a complete conversion set from somewhere and have somebody install them for me. But they were GIVEN TO ME. How can you possibly beat a deal like that??? <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/blink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



If all else fails, I'll just take all the parts to the tuner and ask him to see what fits and what don't! I suppose I could just go from there.



Thanks again for all the help!!!



Dan
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#5

As i recall, the S4/M030 calipers are the same size body, and piston size as the 993TT caliper. The pad retaining plates may be different sizes in each caliper though - they both use the same height pad, but different depths - the 993TT caliper uses deeper pads. It might be that there is something else slightly different in the caliper for the differnt size pads, but can't recall noting anything (it has been some time since i compared them)



To be on the safe side i would measure the centre of the caliper fixing hole on the adaptor to the outer edge - hopefully it is 5mm larger one side - in which case you can use either 965/993TT/993RS discs. Post the dimension(s) you have and i can measure some spare adaptors i have Monday.



Hopefully it is a case of getting some new discs - you could always sell the standard 993 discs to someone who is using S4 calipers and reversible adaptors.



JP
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#6

Thanks frog,



My rotor dimensions are the same as the standard 993 pieces you spoke of: 304mm dia, 40mm top hat, 32mm thick.



Freaking sweet looking I gotta' say! But...



I think I'm just going to take it all over to the tuner and see what he can do. What the heck.



By the way, what's all the to-do about a proportioning valve??? Can you provide assistance with that too?



Thanks again,

Dan
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#7

It sounds to me as though you will have to buy more discs.



The proportioning valve you refer to sits on top of the ABS unit behind the passenger side front wheel arch liner (assuming LHD car) - very awkward to replace, but not difficult. Part number 928 355 305 02, it is a 5/33 valve as opposed to the standard 5/18.



In essence, the '18' designates bar pressure and is the point at which pressure in the rear brake line reaches a change point - graphically presented the 'slope' (pressure) curve reduces ('flattens') a little. At this point, additional pedal travel results in proportional further increase in rear line pressure. Interesting to read up on the net about - to understand what you are doing. For road use not necessary (but then neither are S4/BR's!) (personally would not use BR's on a road only car - well functioning standard calipers are perfectly ok - but this is an issue i don't want to get dragged into)



Some have used front calipers on the rear, personally not convinced by this. There are others calipers available which are original Porsche, better than the standard rear, not so aggressive as fitting fronts to the rear. Not elaborating on a forum though.



Choice of pad is also important, i use pagid on/off track - if you ask for others opinions, you will receive as many as there are people. Go for some good quality name and ones you are comfortable laying your money out on - if using the car on track go for ones that have a recognised track name/pedigree (there is a type marketed here in the UK that come in three colours <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> ones that i do not rate highly, are not race/track focused/developed, although at least one of the types is 'marketed' as that.



JP
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#8

Thanks again for the hot tips JP! Much appreciated.



There are a few reasons I want to change to the BR's.



First, Safety. This is because I do drive the autobahn (frequently) in the summer months and as you know the traffic from the former East (especially the truckers) do not drive with the same respect and courtesy as do Germans. They are prone to pulling out in front of a fast moving car (sans blilnker) just to see what happens it seems. Consequently, it gets rather interesting when motoring along at 260 or more and you have to suddenly make a REAL WORLD change in velocity. It brings a whole new meaning to the term "Pucker Factor". I suppose a drag chute might be next on the "to do" list! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Second, I'm going to try to participate in a more PCD club racing events as I work on acquiring my DMSB motorsports license. More brakes = faster lap times. Besides, negative G's are a rush too!!! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Third, I got them dirt cheap and, I'll just go ahead and say it, ...they look cool. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/cool.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



My car is in fact LHD, U.S. specs, well kinda <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />, and it sounds like the proportioning valve would be an integral part of a BR swap. Yes? I've never done a pro-valve before, but it sounds simple enough to do at home. Do you have any advice on the actual installation procedure?



I must have misspoke earlier about the rears, sorry 'bout that. What I meant to say is that I also have a set of rear rotors (not calipers) for a 993TT. Do you know if they would work on the 968 rears, whether with or without mods? Since the pro-valve would work the rears harder, would an upgrade be necessary?



Wow, lots to learn. Thanks again for all the great information you've provided. I love this forum!!!



Best to you,

Dan
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#9

JP, I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but you mention something that is of interest - using front calipers on the rear. Without going into the long story of "why", I'll get to the point - can standard 968 front calipers be used on the rear without any modifications? In advance, THANKS!
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#10

a thought on proportioning, brake size, et all:



braking is all about weight transfer - adding big brakes up front, but not doing the rear upsets that balance - most cars are set up with a slight front brake bias - this is to keep the average driver out of trouble - a little is fine, but a lot is worse than leaving it alone - nose dive is a very dangerous thing when driving fast, traction is lost, as well as control



the immediate reaction to the novice when installing big reds up front, without making other changes, is "wow - they really grab" - this is because they bite hard, and the nose drops quickly, giving you the sensation of big braking - this is not good braking - this is merely a huge weight transfer to the front - in a turn, this would be very bad - what you want is all 4 wheels grabbing evenly, with a slight bias to the front - not nose dive



changing the bias valve sets up more rear braking - this is a great thing in a performance car - it makes it much easier to set the car in a turn, and then power out without big shifts in weight front to rear - balance is everything



if you are doing big reds up front, do them in the rear, and set the bias to balance them - if you are only doing them in the front, you will need to set the bias much more heavily to the rear to compensate - in a setup like that though, you can expect to cook the rear rotors and pads fairly quickly on the track



besides trying to work out the balance of a brake setup intended for a rear engine car, i am not a big fan of big reds, because they add so much weight to the suspension - i love the idea of better brakes, but don't like that solution - in my perfect world, i'd like to see bigger aluminum hat rotors without changing the calipers



a really good pad, and cross-drilled rotors with stainless lines has made a huge improvement in braking in my car - not everything i want, and may not "feel" like it is braking all that much better, but there is a big improvement in braking distance



i still plan to have new rotors made though
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#11

Some very valid points Flash, indeed, have been a strong believer of BR's being overkill for road use. Have used S4 calipers on track, and then for the last few years BR's. The additional weight is agreed - i think this is counteracted by two things - here in the UK trackdays are non-competitive, and whilst we mod our cars to make them go faster, the additional unsprung weight is not going to kill our lap times. For myself, the real thing that makes the difference is the consistency i get from BR's (and appropriate pads) when doing 150-200 miles on track during a day. This is where the real benefit lies - that i can rely on them stopping the car everytime i apply the brakes, every corner, every lap without fade and irrespective of track temperature. Whilst i accept that a better braking technique may render S4 calipers ok, i like the safety margin.



They are also a relatively cheap option, that is a known quantity, and that fit easily. Again - the solution you offer re larger rotors is a strong argument - and to be honest is the 'next level' of mod/development that we should perhaps undertake.



I personally don't like using the BR's (and 5/33 valve) for daily driving - there simply is too much bite/braking - and can quite easily show up the next weak spot, the tyres. I use 235/265 (247mm wide front/277mm wide rear) D01J/DZ03 type tyres on track - even with these i sometimes have insufficent grip to cope witht he braking power - i think this says alot.



Re front calipers fitting on rear, in essence, yes - bodies are same size, rears use spacers (thick washers) as standard, as would putting the fronts on the rear. Read up more on brakes before considering this, plus take note of what Flash is saying re bias/balance. I'm not 100% convinced that BR's with the 5/33 valve is right - i still think there should be slightly more bias tot he rear. Also look up the effects of pressure/force via proportioning valves, pressure/force via larger pistons etc.



Also rememebr that just because loads of us do something it is not necessarily right, and that in reality we just 'play' at it <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



all the best



JP



....and you can also have some serious fun (and trouser filling moments) using that 'huge weight transfer to the front'....especially used in conjunction with a little turning in at the start of a corner. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/tongue.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



JP
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