[Simuse]

I've seen the 0 to 60 marks (manual around 6 and tip around 7.5) - but it seems as though there should really be three marks - using the tip effectively shouldn't be as fast as the manual, but you would think it would be better than just putting it in drive...



What I am wondering - I guess idly curious about - is if anyone knows of 0 to 60 performance for each of the three options?

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[SILVY968]

Porsche says 6.3 and 7.7

I assume that these times were the best that the Porsche test driver's could do. They do not say how they ran the tip times, but since the tip starts in 2nd gear I would expect that they shifted manually at red line.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[wjk_glynn]

[quote name='SILVY968' date='Jan 17 2006, 09:39 PM']Porsche says 6.3 and 7.7

I assume that these times were the best that the Porsche test driver's could do...[/quote]



I guarantee you that Porsche has top notch test drivers on its staff, as does virtually every other car manufacturer.



The reason that the official published numbers tend to be conservative is that there are variations from individual car-to-car coming down the line. Most manufacturers (including Porsche) need to make sure they don't get a PR black eye for false advertising (or incur a small chance of litigation). Remember what happened to Ford when come Mustang GTs were found not to be making the quoted HP.



So a 0-60 time of 6.3-seconds from Porsche should be interpreted as meaning that X% of 968 6-speed coupes can hit 60-mph in 6.3-seconds or less. I don't know the value of X, but its likely to be a high number (e.g. 90 or greater).



Just as an FYI - I've seen 8 independant 0-60 tests of a 968 coupe and the 0-60 times quoted were: 5.6, 5.9, 6.1, 6.2, 6.6, 5.9, 6.1, 6.2



The one and only independant test of a 968 with a TIP was a cab and it listed a 0-60 time of 8-seconds.



You can find more details at http://www.weissach.net/RoadTestSummaries.html



Karl.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[wjk_glynn]

[quote name='Simuse' date='Jan 17 2006, 07:31 PM']I've seen the 0 to 60 marks (manual around 6 and tip around 7.5) - but it seems as though there should really be three marks - using the tip effectively shouldn't be as fast as the manual, but you would think it would be better than just putting it in drive...



What I am wondering - I guess idly curious about - is if anyone knows of 0 to 60 performance for each of the three options?

[right][post="14724"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



I know its a different car, but the Nov-1997 issue of Car and Driver tested a Tip Boxster. They found virtually no difference between manually shifting and letting the box do its thing.



I've no idea how that might carry over to the 968...



Karl.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[coloradocab]

[quote name='wjk_glynn' date='Jan 18 2006, 09:42 AM']I know its a different car, but the Nov-1997 issue of Car and Driver tested a Tip Boxster. They found virtually no difference between manually shifting and letting the box do its thing.



I've no idea how that might carry over to the 968...



Karl.

[right][post="14734"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



If I'm not mistaken, the Boxsters (even the old ones) have the Tiptronic S, which is 5spd with hundreds of shift maps, whereas the 968 has the original Tiptronic tranny, which is 4spd with something like 5 shift maps.



By the way, the tip only starts in second if you don't floor it. Floor it, and it will start in 1st.



If you're autocrossing or driving on the track, the tip can be a curse and a blessing. Depending on ideal gearing for the course you're driving, the tip can reduce the number of shifts, but of course, you pay the weight and performance penalties.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[ether_joe]

I've been wondering about this -- many cars lately coming out with tip-style trannies instead of manuals. My friend has a new Infiniti sedan with the 350Z engine, tip transmission, and it's plenty quick.



Do you think the age of the manual transmission for better performance is coming to an end?

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[ds968]

[quote name='wjk_glynn' date='Jan 18 2006, 08:40 AM']Just as an FYI - I've seen 8 independant 0-60 tests of a 968 coupe and the 0-60 times quoted were: 5.6, 5.9, 6.1, 6.2, 6.6, 5.9, 6.1, 6.2

[right][post="14733"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



I think those figures are closer to reality - lots of variables at play, but stock 968

coupes should be very capable of attaining a 5.6 time with a very experienced but also a post-slimfast driver at the wheel... or a perhaps a jockey... all the way to

a 6.6 time, if Oprah is driving..



Ok, these are not very impressive figures by today's standards, but why even care

about 0-60 unless you're drag racing your 968 from stop light to stop light all the time ? Look at the 1/4 mile numbers instead, and you'll realize the 968 moves up a class or two and is in pretty damn good company for low 14s.. must be them long legged gear ratios !



Add chip, air box and exhaust mods and you're running low to at most mid 13s with a coupe. Now we're talking real sport car class / category. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Simuse]

"...post-slimfast driver at the wheel..."



<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Overall Dan's point is a very valid performance one...the fastest car in the straightaways isn't (always) the one that wins the race. I was reading (here?) about 968's easily closing on "faster" cars due to superior overall performance and handling...



But it seems like my original question might go unanswered unless sometime "we" actually do the test sometime: 0-60 with a manual, 0-60 with a tip in drive, and 0-60 with a tip using the tip. Though the tiptronic will go into first off the line (while just in drive since you would "punch" it)...if you're using the tip you can have it in first at the line...and you'll also shift very differently than the automatic will by itself...so my assumption being in a 0-60 test you can do better than the 7.7 to 8 seconds. They, and all cars who have tip and manual options, really need three 0-60 performance meansures now...don't they?



Again, was just curious if anyone knew of these times in the three "modes"...Dan makes another good point in "why even care" - which is in the end true.



I totally enjoyed driving home through downtown Seattle a half hour ago even though the my best performance would have been measured in a series of 0-20's.



<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[ds968]

not to cause this thread to go too far from Simuse's question, but one thing I love about these cars is that often you get these "dudes" with beefy Mustangs or similar 0-60 performers who take off like a rocket next to you from a stand still and you know you have little chance to stay with them...and then you realize they're heading for the highway onramp and enter the freeway at full throttle,

...and you just smile and floor it... and as you blow by them you see that WTF ??!! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/dry.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> expression on their dismayed and puzzled faces.. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/cool.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

you should be able to get a better time in manual mode



this would, however, require doing a power stand - for those of you who don't know waht this is, it's a great hole-shot technique for automatics that often results in broken axles and transmissions, but gets you out of the hole a LOT faster

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Greimann]

I don't think you could break the axles or tranny on a 968 power braking. The rubber flywheel is another matter...

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

lol - true enough - that would probably be the first thing to go

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Harvey]

An interesting controversy among 928 owners is the auto trans vs the 5 speed....with too much slippage of the automatic's torque tube plate sometimes resulting in Torque Bearing Failure (TBF), sometimes resulting in a permanently damaged block ($$$$). Is TBF a concern for 968 tip cars? As a result of this phenomenon, 928 auto owners regularly release the build up of stress on the torque tube. May be related to the heavy HP engines, dunno.



I only mention this because the two cars have lots of similarities.



Harvey

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Jacks968]

Chris, My experience with the Tip is that (unlike other auto trans) the shift to second is at redline in "D"rive - or in the Tip mode (unless you up shift "Tip It" earlier). The only advantage in 0 - 60 time is that in D there is a very slight lag as you floor it and the Tranny logic shifts down to first gear. If you Tip it into first before launch there is no hesitation on takeoff. I had a Tip 964 and ran several 0 - 60 runs trying various launch styles. Net - difference was .2 seconds using a G-meter and that is not enough to be sure the drivers timing was not in play. The Tip in the 968 is not the same transmission used in the 964 and the 968 Tip logic is "Second Generation" so there is room to say I am off base totally. Just my observations.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[wjk_glynn]

[quote name='ds968' date='Jan 18 2006, 08:11 PM']I think those figures are closer to reality - lots of variables at play, but stock 968

coupes should be very capable of attaining a 5.6 time with a very experienced...[/quote]



I dunno...



Cars vary (a bit). I think that on the same day, same conditions and same (experienced) test driver, you'll get some variation between different cars.



The reason is that no two engines are built to the exact same specifications. Take the bore diameter. When a batch of blocks is being bored, the bring boring tool will initially produce bore diameters at one end of the tolerance range and as the tool wears over the batch, the bore diameters will be at the other end of the tolerance range. Once the diameters are at the last limit, the tool is junked and a new one is used (which goes through a wear cycle all over again).



Then there is a question of balancing. Sometimes you'll get a collection of parts that when added together are not optimum, or if the stars align are perfectly balanced. Its luck of the draw.



And so on.



As an example, I remember reading an article that quoted Alois Ruf saying he saw a 30-hp swing in outputs from 3.4L engines as delivered by Porsche to him (I think he was using them in a Boxster conversion project).



Another example is the 3.6L 964 engines used in the 45x Carrera Cups built for an aborted US race series. Porsche had to individually dyno each engine to make sure they were within +/- 2 (or maybe 3?) hp of the official 260 PS (DIN) or 256 bhp (SAE) rating because there was simply too much variation between engines coming off the manufacturing line.



On numberous occasions, I've noticed magazine test drivers comment in an article that they found a car faster/slower than a previous example they had driven. These comments are getting fewer in recent years, but back in the 70's and 80's, you'd often see comments about "green" or "tight" cars.



I myself test drove 3x 944S2 cars when I purchase my current car, and I absolutely found differences between them. The one I bought was clearly stronger than the other two and all three cars were stock. Yes, there can be all sorts of reasons for the differences (e.g. air filter condition), but my point is that there are differences.



To conclude this rambling post, I think that some 968 Coupes will never hit a 0-60 time of 5.6-seconds, no matter how good the driver.



Karl.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[968Z]

I'll weigh in on this, as I have both. Strictly non-scientific of course, but I would figure at least a 1.5 second differential between the Tip and the six speed from 0-80. The Tip seems to be an RCH quicker in 1st gear, but there is no comparison after that. The RPMs in the six speed stay above 3500-3800 as you shift (higher if you really push it), where the Tip lags a bit until the RPMs catch up after the shift.



Post Script - My experience is that a performance chip has a much more noticible effect in a Tip. I swapped my Autowerks Racing chip from the Tip to the six speed. While there was a change in the seat of the pants meter in the manual, I really noticed the drop in performance in the Tip. So much so that she now has a chip of her own! Fun to drive again.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Simuse]

NOW I'm thinking about performance chips....



So we'll have to take into account car and driver variables - but now I have figured out the solution to my question.



Brian has a manual, Jack and I have tips - not that we need two cars I guess, but will be more fun that way.



At a TBD date we can do a test...worst time buys the beers. Unless it's Brian - because the shame alone in setting the worst time with a manual will be more than enough to bear.



<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.