[ds968]

The g-force in a turn impact with pdk vs manual transmission is practically zero - 1/10 or 2/10 of a second shifting advantage won't do much of anything for you . The lateral acceleration / skid pad tests show a negligible difference . Actually the extra weight of the PDK ( 45-50 lbs I think ) might even hinder it.

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[flash]

lol - uh - no - the difference is huge, due to the much higher maintained speeds going through the turns. 2/10 of a second is the world.  the ability to go up and down through the gears, without having to mess with a pedal, or take your hands off the wheel, creates an environment that a manual transmission car cannot match.  every comparison shows dramatically decreased lap times.  there is a reason that almost all race cars are now double clutch transmissions, like the PDK.  the cars are faster with them.  the added benefit is that faster is more fun.

 

you just haven't spent enough time with one to appreciate it.  it took me a few months to really get the hang of it, and see how much faster i could drive, and how much more fun the car was.  you'll never get it though, if all you want is straight line.  it's up in the canyons, or on the track, where it really shines.

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[ds968]

Uh, no ; the PDK advantage is mostly in a straight line , and yes , it's huge. The g force in turns difference is indiscerrnable . What you mean is the time you save going into the turn and getting out of the turn , without having to fuss with the usual hand and foot work , but that does not affect the g-force fun factor in the turn . See below results :

   

And I agree, if all you're doing is tracking the car, trying to shave off every 1/10 of a second at every opportunity , it can be very satisfying and fun, but for either daily driving or weekend fun runs on twisty roads, ..sorry, but any automatic including PDK ones are boring by comparison to a manual ( to me anyway ) I drove my friend's 911 with PDK on a 45 minute twisty road run ( we switched cars on the return trip ) and was not left with the same smile on my face as driving the six speed 968 . Sure I have not driven the paddle shift long enough to have it grow on me, as it has on you , but then again my opportunity to do so now is in a Maserati , a much bigger and heavier car , so I can't really compare it to the 968 . But when I started this thread I was really comparing the tiptronic with the stick , with the Maserati peripherally mentioned just as an extra element simply supporting my contention that automatics are still no way near the fun of operating a manual .

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[flash]

the differences you cite above are HUGE!!!  .7 seconds in the 1/4 is about 5 car lengths.  that's getting your ass kicked.  don't think for a minute it's limited to straight line though.  look at the 0-60 times.  that's due entirely to the ability to apply power more efficiently.  the skidpad and slalom speeds are irrelevant.  there is no shifting on those.

 

what you are missing is that you get to STAY ON THROTTLE through the turn, instead of having to let off to shift.  that means you are APPLYING POWER and thereby accelerating more than with a manual.  this makes the car faster.  faster in a turn means more centrifugal force.  basic physics there.  that's Gs baby!

 

i sure wish i had dragged you to the experience center, while i was still there, so you could feel the difference with a professional driver.  it's really very noticeable.  the car is more settled and balanced, and just doesn't slow down and herky/jerk like with a manual.

 

that does not take away from the need somebody might have for the testosterone feed of a manual.  i get that.  i just found that i got a bigger rush from going faster.  i also love the fact that the PDK NEVER makes a mistake.  no missed shifts.  no delays.  no popping the clutch early.  i got pretty good at shifting and heel/toe, and on my best day i could not keep up with the PDK.

 

you may get style points for having a manual, but you'll be in the back of the pack against PDKs

 

to each his own though i guess

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[94SilverCab]

Yup, I just like rowing gears in a sports/pleasure vehicle..any assistance to pure manual shifting makes the drive less enjoyable, to me. Partly control, partly nostalgia.

 

JMHO,

 

Jay

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[Rap]

Let's not forget the difference that a driver makes regardless of manual vs. pdk.

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[968Syncro]

Let's not forget the difference that a driver makes regardless of manual vs. pdk.

Thank you Rap, exactly.

 

That is why I wrote: 

"IMHO the fun isn't using a clutch / stick, the fun is being in the proper gear at the right time -- and that can be done with the tip. " 

But it takes some practice to accomplish that with a Tip.

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[ds968]

Bob, ( flash ) I think you're missing the point here ; I clearly agreed with the acceleration difference being HUGE , but both 0-60 and Q-mile times are in a flat out straight line . What I was challenging was your assertion that G-force in a turn is any better with a PDK and it's obviously not - look at the Gs comparison , lateral acceleration and skid pad handling is precisely what defines , and what you feel in a turn, the test results physics don't lie - 1/100 diff with a professional driver . But I get back to my initial issue : shifting speed is neither here nor there ; the aforementioned Tesla will annihilate a PDK Porsche ( except the Turbo S ) , but it's a dreadfully boring car to drive . Same with any automatic vs. a manual ; yes, that testosterone and effort need to FULLY control the car you drive, as opposed to letting it drive you , while you merely assist it with a flick of your fingers on a steering wheel paddle shift , is the night and day difference to me in terms of driving enjoyment , IMO . No matter how fast the PDK lets you move through gears, as far as the driving experience it's still barely a level above a soccer mom driving a Cayenne turbo .

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[flash]

you are missing the point.  those specs ARE NOT indicative of the G force increase that you absolutely WILL gain (assuming you have the nerve to drive it faster).   those specs are steady state, with NO SHIFTING.  you do not shift on a skidpad, or in a slalom, so you will not see the opportunity for increase.  the gain will be due to the fact that you GET TO STAY ON THROTTLE DURING SHIFTING, which, with a PDK can be done IN THE MIDDLE OF A TURN, and therefore you can go faster.

 

the driver is NOT a factor.  of course a race driver will go faster than a soccer mom.  but, the same driver, both cars, the PDK car will be faster through the turns, and will produce more G force in those same turns.

 

there is a reason that race cars got rid of manual transmissions.

 

as for the fun factor, it depends on what you want.  this is like the difference between a ferris wheel and a roller coaster.  different people enjoy each.  i want the clean, fast path through the turns, uninterrupted by shifting.  it took a while to get past the feel of the need to shift, but as soon as i realized how much faster i could drive, i got over it.    it just takes months to gt to that point though.  after driving the PDK for a year, i was just finally starting to get good at it.  you have to drive completely differently.  once you learn it though, it's hard to imagine driving a manual.  it's just so much slower, laborious,  and antiquated.  it's like manual windows.  sure, they still go up and down, but really?  i would never go back now, if i have a choice.

 

the other feature of driveline systems that i have really learned to appreciate, and seriously miss in the current A3, is all wheel drive.  you can drive through the corners so much faster with it, with a lot less power needed.  i regret not waiting longer to get this car, and am considering selling it, so as to get an all wheel version.

 

i am faced with this decision again though.  i want a toy for over here, and i have been thinking TR6, but i don't want to deal with the shifter, and manual windows, and all that.  not sure what i'm going to do yet.

 

ironically though, i have to take the irish driving test in a manual car.

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[ds968]

Meh.. still too easy, I don't like effortless driving .  No satisfying factor to it, other than the end result measured in fractions of a second and an occasional turn at greater throttle speed.   To me it's the same as this :  you have a very competitive friend with whom you play chess frequently and manage to beat him most or all of the time, but it's always a close contest.  Alternatively you sit at the control button of IBM's Big Blue computer programmed to play chess, and simply push that button after everyone of his moves..the computer does all the thinking, all the moves for you, and consistently beats your friend faster that you could have ..  

If you take greater satisfaction in doing the latter, I rest my case...    

 

                

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[Rap]

I drive both and enjoy both. They are just different. Mario 'Andretti has said that to get to be a better driver one needs to drive as many different cars and tracks as they can!

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[flash]

lol - i don't find that the car is at all doing any of the driving.  it's just plain better at shifting than any driver on the planet.  for me, the thrill is in "surfing" the turns at the maximum speed, feeling the weight balance transfer, and adjusting accordingly.  shifting only upsets that balance, and introduces the very real potential of grip loss at the time of the shift.  i can't count the number of times that i wished i was in a different gear by the time i got to the end of a turn, but knew that shifting in the turn was not an option.  with the PDK, it is an option.  for me, that makes driving more fun.

 

but to each his own.  lol - like i said, somebody has to be in the back of the pack.

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[az968]

No question that a PDK car is faster than it's manual sibling. I've driven both. I think when I get too old/lazy/mentally slow(er) to handle a manual a PDK will replace it. But to me a big part of the sports car experience is having to decide the proper gear and getting into it at the right momemt. Don't always get it right but when I do, I feel like I know what I'm doing!


Now if only someone would design a PDK upgrade for my 968 I could look forward to the future with hope rather than abject dispair. :-)

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[ds968]

BTW, the driver is at least 50 % of the equation, perhaps much more ... even as as old as he is, someone like Mario Andretti driving a stick shift 968, would run circles around most accomplished amateur track drivers at the wheel of a PDK GT3 RS. But we're back to racing stuff, and this was all about the overall experience between automatics vs manuals, where it seems the popular vote tips the scale ( by a good margin ) in favor of the manual , Then again the " popular vote " is of little consequence nowadays , lol.

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[flash]

the driver is not part of the equation at all.  apples to apples, not apples to oranges.  your grandmother would get her ass kicked in a formula 1 car up against mario andretti in a yugo.

 

actually, if you look at sales figures, the PDK wins the popular vote, by a long shot.  it's not really appropriate to look at the opinions on sites like this one, where almost nobody has spent any real time with a PDK.  of course they are going to defend their manuals.  i expect them to defend the 968 too, when there are much better cars out there.  i did, until i drove something better.  then it became very hard to defend against the realities.  that doesn't mean that somebody should love the car, or the manual trans.  i still have a yearning for an old british sportscar, in spite of the fact that it would pale by comparison to almost anything.  there is something esoteric about it.  there is nothing wrong with loving that.  but, fact to fact, figure to figure, you can't win that argument.  a manual transmission will be slower.  a 968 will lose on the track to your basic cayman.  it is what it is.

 

drive what makes you happy, and don't worry about the rest if you don't care about it.

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[lbpesq]

"the driver is not part of the equation at all. apples to apples, not apples to oranges. your grandmother would get her ass kicked in a formula 1 car up against mario andretti in a Yugo"


Flash, aren't directly contradicting yourself? If the driver isn't part of the equation, wouldn't my grandmother in the formula 1 car beat Mario in the Yugo? Or are you saying that Yugo's will always beat formula 1 cars, regardless of driver?


And, if you are rating quality based on sales figures, the 968 is a really sucky car. So what you been drinkin' over there?

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[Rap]

A sucky driver in a cayman won't beat a good driver in a 968 unless it is an oval or a track with very little curves. I just did this against a carrera s at WGI with 150 more hp than me and I'm not good!

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[flash]

for an apples to apples comparison, you have to eliminate all variables, such as the driver.  the same driver in each car will show the car's abilities or lack thereof

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[az968]

Eliminate the driver? So now advocating self-driving cars Flash :-) :-)

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[flash]

lol - absolutely!!!  i can't wait

 

remember - i advocate really expensive gasoline, strict license testing, no fault insurance, and massive public transportation expansion.  anything to get the cars off the road, and free up traffic.  most people merely commute.  they don't need to drive themselves.

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