[968Syncro]

So, I got my car back with the body work done on the hood repair. This goes back to the hood damage that the "Porsche repair" expert shop did when I had the belts done. See:

I decided to break the balance shaft belt



So I wrote a Yelp review (as follows). He called me in 5 minutes all upset, I am killing him, what he can do to fix it, let's make a deal, offered this and that, even a full refund to remove the review, I didn't pay for it because the "junior" (trying to be nice) mechanic who damaged the hood payed for it. Need some guidance from all you insightful 968 folks! Please comment on my review, maybe I was too hard on the shop, or .....



Here is what I wrote on yelp, gave it a rating of 2 out of 5:



Don't bring your specialty car here or one you really care about.



My Porsche needed the hood repaired since it was dented by another local car repair shop. Picking up the car, at first glance it looked great, no obvious flaws -- it was "detailed" and parked out front in the full sun ready for pick up. (full sun is never a way to examine a car body).



And then at home under different lighting it was revealed -- there was still a very slight bump on the original dent, some circles of hidden paint layers that weren't properly sanded and filled, and some "orange peel" towards the rear of the hood where they messed up the clear coat layer.



Before you pick up you car, ask to examine your car in the dark by looking at the reflection of a straight florescent light tube. You'll see everything. Also they called the final car cleaning a "detailing" but the wheels received just a superficial rub, not even close to cleaning on the wheels which would have been completed in a "detailing".



They probably do good work for people who aren't too picky or on standard cars. Will give them a 2 because the job was about as good as what I could have done in my garage, and there were several problems in the resulting work, not just one. O well, they seem like nice people, they are one of our local businesses, and perhaps they will improve.

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[Rap]

Nope. You might not be able to use him again but why would you unless he is the only game in town. Crappy work needs to be called.

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[Cloud9...68]

I would give them one opportunity to make it right. If they take care of it to your satisfaction, I would take down the review, and write a new one stating that while the job wasn't quite done to your satisfaction the first time, the way they took care of the problem give you confidence that they are in fact a competent and honest shop. But if they still don't get it right, leave the review as is.

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[Chris Vais]

Roland,



A couple of points if I may:



Given that none of us is perfect, I would have given the shop the opportunity to make it right. If you did something less than perfect, I'm sure that you would appreciate the opportunity to set things right, no? I've had a few occasions were I felt the work done on the car was not up to snuff and I have always made it point to meet with business owner to discuss the matter and every time, without fail, the problem has been rectified to my satisfaction.



Yelp is worthless as a source of information. Are you aware, that Yelp makes no effort to verify the veracity of anyone's review whether positive or negative? Are you also aware the Yelp contacts businesses that get a negative review and offers their services, for a price naturally, to "fix" the bad review? It has been suggested that Yelp encourages people to write bad reviews of popular businesses so that they might sell their "fix it" services. Now I don't know whether this is true or not, but it has been suggest more than once.



My "other" job is as an Ass't Winemaker at small family owned winery. Last December we received a bad Yelp review written by someone who was stopped by the winery owner outside of the winery tasting room with a bottle of our wine in hand. When asked about the bottle the reviewer made a huge scene, said the bottle was handed to her by someone inside the winery, she then handed the bottle back and left. The next day a Yelp review characterizing the owner as rude and aggressive appeared. It is, in California, contrary to law to permit a patron to leave the winery with a bottle of wine in hand. It must be in either a bag or in the case of a multiple bottle purchase in a box or some other suitable container. We can loose our license over such a thing, so we are diligent about these matters. Being outside of some ones business, whether a winery or some other business, with that businesses goods in hand, without, in this case, a bag or box as required by law, and no purchase receipt, is not acceptable. When the owner, confronts the offender, and a bad review is posted on Yelp, but no one from Yelp makes the effort to verify what actually occurred.



Now with respect to the content of your review. The car was sent in for repair of the damaged hood, not for detailing, so if the detailing was not up to your standard, so what, that wasn't what they were contracted to do. I think your last paragraph is very subjective and has no place in a factual review. Your opinion that you could have done as good a job in your garage, is just that your opinion offered with no facts to back it up. When I read a review I expect a fact based description of what worked and what didn't, what was done to correct any problems that arose and whether or not you are satisfied with the outcome.



I apologize if this post has a harsh tone to it, but it is very difficult to run a small business, and all businesses big or small, occasionally make a mistake, have an off night, but I'll wager that anyone of them would welcome the opportunity for a do over so that you, as the customer, are satisfied.

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[Rap]

Chris your response is well reasoned and thought out. Everyone makes mistakes and should get a second chance. Consumers often have little recourse against companies with their complaints. We deal with complaints also and do our darnedest to fix or make better the customers source of irritation. However, how often does one find themselves on the wrong side of trying to resolve a problem with no other recourse? While Yelp may lack credibility the response seems to have been quick and to the owners satisfaction. Seems interesting the owner knew of the posting on the web so quickly.

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[flash]

from a legal standpoint, a vendor may have a case for libel if you don't give him an "opportunity to cure" and publish negative comments.

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[flash]

to further expound on my point above, i would caution against publishing negative reviews unless you have documentation or recordings to support claims of what somebody was supposed to do, or what was agreed upon. should a vendor decide to pursue legal action, the burden of proof is on the customer to prove their claims. this is generally very difficult in the area of auto repair, as the "industry standard" is quite vague. what one person thinks is acceptable may not be that of another. frequently you wil hear a shop say "you didn't tell me to do that" on something that we might think is obvious. unless you have specific delineation of the expectation of performance, it can be very hard to defend against a libel claim.



i don't know this shop, or the situation. i have no interest in the matter. i am speaking only in general as to the pitfalls of expressing your dissatisfaction in a publication, and to say that we all should be getting our expectations down in writing.

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[968Syncro]

Hey Chris,



Thanks for taking the time to explain your views, I appreciate it and no problem at all. That is why I posted the question, to get some real feedback.



Unfortunately I am hesitant to take it back again to make it correct. I guess the only reason is that they will work harder and more carefully when redoing it? Yet I don't understand why a shop wouldn't work hard and be careful in the first place. Besides I am not sure I want more sanding and filling and another layer of clear coat on the hood.



About doing the same job in my garage, yeah I didn't include the facts, but in this case it actually true. I have the equipment and ability to do this work myself. I painted the bumper cover and the shark fins a years ago (shown in some posts here on the forum in the summer of 2008) and that was in silver with clear coat which isn't the easiest. This is probably unusual for us forum guys, and certainly unusual for the general public. I just didn't provide those details, so in fact this statement is true, but isn't backed up in writing with the facts.



About Yelp, I have no experience with it at all, and no insights, I had heard of it before, I created an account to post this review. Why? Because this shop has Yelp signs all over their office: come see our great reputation on Yelp! Please write a review on Yelp! etc. So I looked when I brought the car in and the reviews were really good, almost excellent. Remember the shop manager offered to refund the entire price of the repair, a little over $500.00 if I would remove my review -- no wonder they have only good reviews on Yelp!!!!



About negative reviews and libel and all that stuff. First of all I tried to make the review all facts and a truthful and honest assessment. There is nothing untrue in the review, unless you consider my advice to others like "don't take your specialty car here" but that is obviously advice and therefore opinion. The detailing was a verbal commitment when I dropped it off, and so was included in the work, it doesn't appear on the work order.



If I can rant, then I am just so sick of the way too many American businesses have gone into shoddy work. Of course this shop could have done it correctly the first time, it wasn't just an oversight. It is the usual problem they have the fancy professional nice guy up front at the counter, and the minimum wage / no benefits poor guy in the back doing the sanding and filling. All to make a buck and then ... what ... I am at fault for examining their work closely and finding their mistakes? I've already driven over there 3 times, arranging rides for me for pickup/delivery, was out the car for 5 days, and now I am supposed to repeat that process on my time and my nickel? Probably compounding the problem was the first idiot who closed the hood on parts or tools laying on the valve cover -- this guy drives a 968 as his personal car, is a Porsche trained mechanic, but has a new "Porsche only" shop in town. I actually thought that taking my car here is being nice to small business, give him a chance. But on the other hand I have repeatedly used a couple of other shops with better reputations and longer in business, and guess what I have found a number of problems with their work also -- real problems that they acknowledged and corrected. Every time I bring the car in I wonder what will go wrong! And then like this shop, the answer is always bring it back in and we'll try again! Never do they say "I'll come to your house, examine the work and speak with you, and then send a driver to leave you a rental car while he brings your car back to our shop". I am not against small business, we have a family business ourselves and often make decisions and take a hit financially to favor customers and employees.



Don't know, I think I'll just go get a Camry and then like Jackson Brown sang: "I'm going to pack my lunch in the morning,

And go to work each day .... I'm going to be a happy idiot, And struggle for the legal tender, Where the ads take aim and lay their claim. To the heart and the soul of the spender ". Ha-Ha!



Not sure yet what to do. The 968 has some other small goobers here and there on the paint anyway, so in a way these minor flaws on the hood are really not that big a deal -- you can only see them if you really look hard for them. It is the principle of the thing -- can't trust any shop. Maybe I'll just bring the car back and let them do some other work, a couple of places that need some touch-up more than the flaws on the hood. But I do stand by my review -- the questions is fairness of posting it, not fairness of what I wrote.

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[flash]

i understand the frustration, and what you might think is factual or true. however, in the eyes of the law, what is factual and true is only what you can prove to be so. in a libel suit, the law sides with the vendor barring evidence to the contrary.



i'm not saying for a second that what you are saying is not true, or that you are not right in being upset or dissatisfied. all i am saying is that you can get into a problem area by saying it in a publication unless you have proof to support your claims (and websites that can be viewed by the public are publications)



there are plenty of vendors i could trash. there are some who frequent this site. however, for multiple reasons, including but not limited to avoiding libel claims, i choose to be extremely careful about the specific language i use, unless i have specific proof of whatever it is i am saying. further, i keep out of it opinions and recommendations as to somebody else doing business with them.



in this particular instance, if you don't give him an opportunity to cure, and this guy is vindictive, based on what i read, a good attorney could make a case. i'm not sure what he could get out of it, as he would have to prove damages, but the case could be made nonetheless.



it sucks that we have to be so careful. i miss the days of the handshake agreement. but, with things being what they are, i get everything in writing, or open myself up to problems. as an example, when i had my engine built, not only was the work order very specific, there were at least 50 emails laying out every detail of what we expected of each other. in the end, we were both very happy with the results.

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[Chris Vais]

Roland,

You and every other consumer that contracts to have work done, be it auto repairs, plumbing, house painting, should expect that the work you contracted for be done to the best of the providers ability. My primary job is engineering consulting. There is an industry standard of care that we endeavor to adhere to and we have our professional reputation to stand by. If I have a client who isn't pleased by the work we do or feels like we overlooked something, I want to hear about it, so that I can make it right, at my cost.



If the work done on the car does not meet your satisfaction and you take it back for correction, I believe that you are entitled to be compensated in some way for the inconvenience and I wouldn't hesitate to ask.



I have a group of trades people whom I deal with on a regular basis, some, like my Porsche mechanic, for more than 20 years. They know me, they know my expectations and they treat me fairly. I probably pay a little more for goods and services than most people, but I know that if I have a problem it will be promptly and and fairly dealt with. I don't write reviews on Yelp or anywhere else. I show my appreciation for a job well done by referring friends, relatives and business contacts to them.

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[968Syncro]

[quote name='Chris Vais' timestamp='1360086115' post='138391']

... should expect that the work you contracted for be done to the best of the providers ability.

[/quote]

Chris, it may be a small wording problem, but this is where we will seriously disagree. The work should not be done to the provider's best ability, it needs to be done to industry standards. In this case I got the "provider's best ability", but apparently their ability doesn't include an understanding that the resultant work should appear like a new panel, no bumps, no concentric rings where the sand and fill on the previous paint layers was not done correctly. Should I insist the next time at a body shop the work order specifies "make it look like new" or maybe "repair the damage so that it appears there was no damage"? Isn't that implied when you take a care for body work? I got the "provider's best ability", why should I go back to give them a 2nd chance and get more of the same "best effort"?

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[Chris Vais]

Roland, you are correct, a poor choice of words on my part. You are entitled to receive the "standard of care" and sadly many business do not meet that standard. When I dod find someone who meets or exceeds the "standard" I go out of my way to nurture those relationships.

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[flash]

here's the problem: the industry standard for body and paint is NOT "like new". i wish it were. i found this one out the hard way a long time ago. the industry standard for a "normal" job is a reasonable color match, reasonable amount of orange peel, and no visible signs of bodywork underneath the paint. anything beyond that needs to be clearly specified, and costs more than a "normal" job.



still, you are entitled to reasonable satisfaction, but unfortunately it rests with the customer to take it back to the vendor for rework. you are not entitled to time and hassle, nor a rental car, unless it is an insurance claim and your insurance policy provides for it.



again, i'm not siding with the shop. i'm just pointing out what their point of view likely is, and what responsibility falls to whom.

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[tamathumper]

I feel your pain. I've been burned badly by frequenting small businesses lately, both with the P-car and general home improvements (flooring, pressure washing). Sadly, I'm leaning toward frequenting big boxes because the quality is acceptable and if it is not they have the bandwidth to make it right. I have a large kitchen granite job right now that I'm having to toss up between Lowe's and a local stone company... I understand the long-term benefit of supporting small and local businesses, but I can't afford it in the short term if they cost as much or more and damage my resale value with shoddy work and no recourse.

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[flash]

ironically lowes farms it out to a local business anyway. they also charge a premium so as to cover their "in-house" financing.



if you could figure out who they use, you could probably get the same job for less.

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[tamathumper]

Excellent point... After my last flooring debacle, the premium is worth it, and yes I did consider leaving a bad review for the !@#$ that did it, but I settled for telling every co-worker and acquaintance who would listen what a !@#$ he was. (Not just a poor quality job, but a real !@#$ to work with too).

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[Rap]

Reminds me of the guy that screwed up my garage floor the first time. Although this was my fault for selecting him. Very low probability of a service shop suing someone for a posting on yelp. Slander is difficult to prove and what shopowner in their right mind wants that type of publicity? There is too much chance of losing even if you win by the negative perception left in possible future business's mind. Would you go somewhere this happened? Easier and more efficient to make it go away quietly. I should have been a lawyer! Oh wait I dropped out after two years!

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[tamathumper]

Although this was my fault for selecting him.

Although it's nice of you to share in the blame, do you really feel it's your fault for giving someone your money and having them fail?

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[flash]

slander is difficult to prove. libel is not. damages are a different story, but all he would need is one customer willing to testify, saying "i didn't go to you because i read....."



again though, all that is necessary to stay clear is to give an "opportunity to cure" (legal term), which if left to a mediator, would be exactly their position

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[968Syncro]

And the answer is .............................!



Given that:

- these flaws from their work can hardly be seen, you have to really examine very closely.

- there are other 'goobers' on the body that are far more noticeable.

- I forgot my operating principle when I was VP Engineering (or similar positions) managing dozens of engineers/staff: Reprimand in private, praise in public.

- I just want the whole thing to go away.



1. I removed the review from Yelp, won't write another one (not from lawsuit concern at all).

2. I called the shop to let him know. He still asked what he can do for me; my response was "the next time somebody brings a Porsche or special car please inspect the work yourself and make sure it is correct." He said "you're right, will do, I should have been doing that".



It's done, everybody wins, it went away.



Thanks to all my forum friends, I always get to learn something from you.



Roland

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