[ds968]

That's it ! I'm going to conduct a test the results of which will conclusively end this debate once and for all ; am buying a new, not oiled K&N filter and a paper one and then pouring half a bottle of unfiltered 2001 Newton pinot noir into one decanter trough the K&N filter, followed by the other half trough the paper OE filter. Whichever one holds the greater amount of particles harmful to my stomach will be the winner and I will post the findings ... as soon as I can...probably the following day, around noon maybe . Stay tuned [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

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[rxter]

<!--quoteo(post=77359:date=Aug 11 2009, 05:23 AM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ Aug 11 2009, 05:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->here in california, where a hot cup of coffee can buy you a nice big house in beverly hills,<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Anyone willing to split a hot cup of coffee with me [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]



Endlessly entertaining gents.

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[94SilverCab]

Hey guys Post #103..what did I miss??? LOL...

I use a K & N Filter and clean it yearly (before Hershey, +/- 3,000 miles)...I like it...

YMMV,

Jay

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[jfrahm]

So from reading this thread I guess the majority conclusions are:

1) The HP gains from running a K&N are significant

2) The grit passed on by the K&N filter, while significant, is not causing significant wear

As for the first, the claims seem unrealistic. And how many unbiased tests are out there? A magazine or website supported by advertising, some of which is for companies that sell performance parts, is not really unbiased. K&N, obviously, is not unbiased. Some performance gain is expected but as the overall restriction from a typical paper filter in a properly-sized airbox is quite small, cutting that restriction even in half is not likely to result in significant gains. I understand some people think there is something not-understood at work that allows for these gains and that is somewhat possible (a possibility is that an open-loop system running a bit leaner at WOT.) Overall I think the gains are overstated as they usually are when car parts and money come together.

As for the second point , I think the grit is significant and while in my tenure as an owner of any given car it might not add up to much, it still bothers me. Having torn down a lot of dirtbike engines I have seen what bores can look like after eating a lot of dirt and dust and still run quite strong. The fact that it is possible to eat a lot of dust and still make good power does not mean I am OK with doing it. I've seen the holes in K&N filters, I've seen the grit they pass. Even if there is 5hp on the table it's not enough IMO. You might think differently and that is your right.

-Joel.

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[flash]

well, you would be incorrect in both cases

1 - the article was written long before any relationship between the magazine and the website existed - there was no affiliation between K&N and the magazine either - frankly they had no idea how that was going to turn out, and didn't even have any idea i was writing the article until after it was done - i wrote the article myself, conducted the tests myself, had others there to see it, used other cars, and had no interests beyond seeing what was going on - frankly the K&N test was an afterthought - we were there to test the box mod - whether the gain from the filter is direct or indirect is irrelevant as well - with it in place you get more power than with the paper in place - it is real - it is measurable - i take serious offense at any accusations of any bias or impropriety

2 - the bottom line is that any dirt that goes through is irrelevant if the engine is still working fine - based on the multitudes of examples, clearly the dirt does not seem to have an effect, regardless if it is there or not - maybe we don't like the idea of it being there, but it does not seem to harm anything

in colorodo i doubt much of anything makes much of difference on a normally aspirated engine - the altitude has a much larger effect

all that being said, you are still free to do what you want

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[hot968]

<!--quoteo(post=77364:date=Aug 11 2009, 08:47 AM:name=xrad)-->QUOTE (xrad @ Aug 11 2009, 08:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I made my last post on page one because that is where my expertise ended, and even then , it was cut and pasted from some 'Society of Filtration' (which I plan to join ASAP...not).

Usually, when I get to this topic and this thread, I crack open a beer and enjoy what everyone has to say. It is these lively antagonizing robust 'conversations' which are most interesting!!

If you go back to the beginning of the post and reread everything, you will find much info about air filtering, sometimes colored and hidden by opinion.

I know I learned something from and about this topic from everyone invloved (except from 'Hot968' on page three [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] )!<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I have to ammit I don't know a thing about these K& N filters. I asked my guy and he said since I drove only 300 miles this year it would not make any difference if I had paper or K&N. This discussion is very informative but WAY above my head [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mellow.gif[/img]

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[ds968]

I'm reviving this "dead horse" because I just remembered an old discussion with my mechanic, which I never posted : after my timing belt snapped, and he had the entire top of my engine in separate parts sitting on his work benches, in addition to showing me how incredibly clean the intake valve spaces were, as well as the entire surrounding exposed area were for that matter, he also mentioned that the intake manifold was so clean you "could eat off of it" . So just thought I'd let everyone know that I've had a K&N air filter for over six years in this car, and perhaps more importantly I only recall cleaning and re-oiling it twice in that timeframe ( yeah, I know..I neglect things like that.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif[/img] ) . Hopefully that solves some doubts as to how much ( any ) impurities a K&N might let through.

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[Cloud9...68]

Probably the surest, most quantitative way to tell how much dirt a given filter is letter pass through is through an oil analysis - the ppm of silicon is a telltale sign of dirt getting into the oil, and therefore the engine, through the air intake. Although even that doesn't say anything about the size of the particles. But doing analyses with paper vs. K & N filters aross identical oil change intervals, with the car driven as similarly as possible during the intervals, would probably be the best way to answer this question. Analyses aren't cheap, however, at about $100 a pop, so I have a feeling this is a debate that may go on forever...

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[flash]

lol - i think the debate only goes on amongst guys who are too cheap to pop for the K&N, and refuse to acknowledge the countless thousands of success stories, and complete lack of complications

but whatever

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[Fox944]

agreed

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[jfrahm]

" i think the debate only goes on amongst guys who are too cheap to pop for the K&N"

Well I think there are three of them on the shelf in my garage that I have removed from cars I have purchased. I did not care to run grit through the engines, so I swtched them back to stock. So it's not always cheapness. Perhaps there are no real-world complications but I'm just not comfortable with what I have found thus far.

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[Chris Vais]

"he had the entire top of my engine in separate parts sitting on his work benches, in addition to showing me how incredibly clean the intake valve spaces were, as well as the entire surrounding exposed area were for that matter, he also mentioned that the intake manifold was so clean you "could eat off of it""

That's the result of all the grit you pulled through the engine, it sand blasted the intake valves and other interior spaces LOL [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]

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[jfrahm]

It's not like you are going to find mud and dirt and dust bunnies in there but more particles will pass through. Perhaps not enough to matter at all in the service life of the engine. Maybe it's like the volcano, yes some dust is in the air but enough to measure? and does it matter?

If you want some laughs put a smear of axle grease or a shot of K&N oil in your airbox on the clean side and see how gritty it gets after a few thousand miles. On my FJ1200 I was amazed at how much grit I found in the intake tracts, the PO had fitted K&N pod filters and I serviced them a few times.

My general impression is that they do not produce enough of a gain to warrant messing with. One day I will try to give them a fair test as I have the filters for 968 and 928 on the shelf and all the cleaning/oiling supplies... I think I might have one in the Duc too, I do not recall. It'd be hard to test on that platform though.

My SC car has a K&N also but there might not be an easy alternative. Low priority. I plan to move the MAF under the header in that car so I might look for a different filter at some point.

-J.

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[Fox944]

I'vbe owned several project/toy cars, daily drivers as well as a a couple bikes. Every single one has had a k&N in there (at least for a short while untill i swaped for a CAI). never had a single issues related to using a k&N. My general impression is the opposite of yours joel. Its a no brainer for me. No damage being done to the motor, yet gains are to be had...i view it as silly & cheap not to swap your filter for a K&N.

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[ds968]

Chris, now that's funny ! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]

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[flash]

how about this one? the stuff caught in the oil in the filter is stuff that got by the paper

i've done enough real world testing to know for sure that a properly maintained k&n presents NO danger whatsoever, and that there is no discernible change in oil contamination (at least not without a lab test which i have not yet done) or engine wear as a result of the filter - even if a lab test showed anything, it still would not prove any harm

however, it does allow more flow which means more power - that's basic physics

as for an sc car, a clean filter is MUCH more critical there - ANY particles that hit that impeller will do damage - if you are concerned about a K&N allowing something past your filter on NA, you should be doubly concerned about it on an sc car - do anything you can to keep that thing perfectly clean

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