[flash]

awwwwwww - i wanted to talk about the Greenie Filter - lol

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[biotechee]

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! (unless you dyno tested it in comparison with the K&N and OEM, then talk away!)

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]

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[PorscheDude]

Don't forget to install the tornado device....
Saves 18% gas.

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[firefish]

I installed my new K&N the other day (airbox mod already done). The only change I can feel save for better sound is that the dual resonance "kick" is much less significant. However, I am not sure if that is thanks to improved low end or due to decreased top end.

One more thing - I got 2 new stickers!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

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[S_Cal968]

Thanks for posting the link to "bobistheoilguy", page 3 gets into the filtering comparison. He came to the same conclusion I did. While there is a performance gain with the K&N, the compromise is more dirt getting into the engine. If the owner wants more power, but doesn't care about filtering - have at it.

I guess in future instalments the OilGuy will look at the affects on engine components. What I'd like to see is characterization of the cylinders after ~150k miles and oil analysis every 10K miles. This would finally provide a conclusive summary and put the debate to bed.

Here's another site:
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->The question posed in the title of this post is one that I've seen debated on the 'net since discovering car-related email lists. Fortunately, a Duramax owner tired of the lack of scientific evidence pursued a path of testing that eventually ended with a lab performing the ISO 5011 procedure on a number of replacement air filters. The result was one that many might have concluded on their own - for a given size, a filter's ability to trap dust is inversely proportional to its flow rate. If keeping dust from your engine is the goal, a paper filter such as an AC Delco will provide far superior filtering performance, but you'll pay a price in airflow. If WOT performance is most important, the K&N filter used in this test provided about 50% less restriction to airflow, with the 1.6" of H20 difference in air pressure drop at 350 CFM making for a minimal difference (~0.5%) in power at this flow rate. The K&N and UNI filters were far less efficient at trapping dust, and note that they lose their flow advantage after filtering about 180 grams of dust. There's also the economics of washable cotton filters, with a K&N providing a savings of about $285 over 250,000 miles. All of my vehicles currently run K&N filters, but this test has me re-thinking the use of them on daily drivers.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

A line that caught my eye is "that they lose their flow advantage after filtering about 180 grams of dust". This poses the question, if all out performance is your goal, how do you know when you've reached 180g and have to clean the filter?

p.s. A solution for those who have grown tired of this topic - just don't open the thread. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

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[PorscheDude]

Yawn....

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[biotechee]

<!--quoteo(post=76631:date=Aug 2 2009, 02:47 PM:name=S_Cal968)-->QUOTE (S_Cal968 @ Aug 2 2009, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->p.s. A solution for those who have grown tired of this topic - just don't open the thread. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Didn't grow tired of the topic... Just trying to inject some humor into a situation where the two sides will never agree, no matter how strong either arguement is.

Isn't Bob the Oil Guy a vendor of some sorts? In other words, perhaps not an impartial source? Seriously just asking....

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[Cloud9...68]

Not sure if this adds much to the discssion, but when I had my oil analysis done a few months ago, it showed a minute-but-not-insignificant amount of silicon, which the analyst ascribed to dirt ingress. I have a K & N air filter, and have to confess to not being as diligent as I should have about cleaning and oiling the filter. I have no excuse for this, since my car isn't a daily driver, so it would be no hassle at all to clean the filter every 3000 miles or so. The analysis was a wake-up call to be more diligent in the future, and I've started recording in my maintenance log when I service the filter.

So, based on Flash's dyno results, my vote would be to to go with the K & N, and perform the required service. If I put 15,000 miles a year on the car, I might feel differently, though.

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[xrad]

Hmmmmm....might have to get an AC Delco filter.....

But I can't now that I have the really cool K+N sticker!!

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[xrad]

Here is a little something from the American Separations and Filtrations Society :


How Does Air Filter Performance Affect Engine Life?
Engine wear is very complex and depends on; 1)Type of contaminants; 2) Shape of contaminants; 3) Contaminant size; 4) Contaminant concentrations ; 5) Driving conditions; 6)Engine load conditions and 7) Air filter performance. Engines have to be protected from abrasive contaminants ingested into the combustion chamber.

Wear Process
A new engine generally goes through normal wear during the break in period. Abnormal wear (abrasive wear) is associated with contaminant levels found inside the engine. Majority of the engine failures are directly related to abnormal wear. Efficient combustion and well filtered air are essential to protect engines from wear and also extend oil drain intervals [2]. Two key filtration systems for engine protection are the engine intake and the lube oil systems. There is a certain synergy between the design of oil filters and engine air filters. What penetrates through the engine air filter system also affects the lube oil filter system. A well designed engine air induction filtration system will; a) Remove and reduce abrasive contaminants; b)Reduce and control the ingested dust concentration levels within acceptable limits; c) Control and remove contaminant sizes most harmful to the engine; d)Reduce overall engine wear; e) Reduce oil contamination; f) Reduce blow-by conditions; g) Control emissions; h) Increase engine life and durability; i) Increase lube oil service interval; j) Reduce overheating of the engine; k)Smooth engine performance

Fodor [4, 5] in his study found that about 80% of all engine failures were attributed to engine wear. It is absolutely necessary to have improved filtration for air and oil filters to reduce engine wear [4]. Both, contaminant concentrations and sizes ingested by the engine are important to reduce wear and improve engine durability and life. It has been demonstrated that by using high efficiency air and oil filters, engine wear can be significantly reduced [6]. Studies have shown that engine life is a function of induction air cleanliness [7] and that cleanliness of an engine is a pre-requisite for problem free operation [7].

Wear Causing Contaminants
Airborne dust contaminants and Dirt are very abrasive in nature and the most common cause of high metal wear in engines [1, 9, 12, 13, 14 and 15]. Even small amounts of airborne contaminants can significantly increase the wear on piston rings and cylinder walls. Dirt ingested by the engine eventually ends up in the oil as silica. A study recommends maximum amount of silica or dirt in the oil should be less than 5ppm for 4 cylinder engines and less than 10ppm for 6 cylinder engines, when the engine is operated for 50hrs or 2500 miles [1]. Laboratory studies have shown that engine wear is produced by particles in the size range of 1 - 40 µm. Studies also indicate that the most harmful particle size is in the range of 1 - 20 µm [9, 10, 11, 12]. Studies have also shown that particles smaller than 1µm do not cause any significant wear, but their presence weakens the oil film [5]. Studies have shown that measuring various oil film thicknesses may indicate the different sizes of contaminants that may cause excessive wear.

Typical oil film thickness and clearances found in engines are listed in table 1. Investigations have also shown that during the power stroke or high load conditions the piston ring - cylinder wall gap could be reduced to almost zero [13,14]. This tells us that it is important and necessary to control or remove abrasive particles down to very fine sizes.

Piston skirt - cylinder wall /liner
~ 25 µm - 100 µm

oil film thickness between piston ring - cylinder wall
< 1µm - 15 µm

piston - pin bosses
~ 8 µm - 15 µm

other bearing film thickness
~ 2 µm - 22 µm


Engine air cleaners are typically designed for normal to typical driving conditions. In a dusty environment such filters may not adequately protect the engine. This causes excessive wear and irreversible damage to the engine. Fodor [4] indicated that the air cleanliness ingested by the engine should be < 0.01mg/m3 to reduce engine wear. Figure 1 shows the effect of engine air filter life (loading) on filter efficiency and engine wear. Data was collected for heavy-duty air cleaners. It is important to note that the filter efficiency increases with loading (life) and hence the wear rate also reduces.

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[xrad]

PS: I just bought a few Mahle filters to try out.....

being that the engine has 115000 miles, i am not too concerned. But after the turbo build, air quality number 1 issue.

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[hot968]

I hate to ask but is the filter you ae talking about the sir filter that is in the front of the motor?

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[PorscheDude]

Yes, that is the one "in question".

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[flash]

you could argue perfect world scenarios all day long, but the fuel that goes past the worn valve guides of most of these engines does a whole lot more damage than anything getting past a filter

my engine has had a K&N on it since the second owner put it there at 7k - it is now at 47k - i still have 198lbs of compression and the car is running strong - how long do i have to wait to see damage?

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[PorscheDude]

In your case, the year 2064 or 210k miles which ever occurs first.

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[Fox944]

My car has also had a K&N filter in it since the second owner purchased it. I am the third owner. i've driven 12K miles with the K&N filter & airbox mod. No damage. The second owner drove the car over 30K miles with a K&N and no damage. My car is running stronger then ever and i'm also wondering when this damage will occur.

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[ds968]

<!--quoteo(post=76754:date=Aug 3 2009, 03:47 PM:name=Fox944)-->QUOTE (Fox944 @ Aug 3 2009, 03:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->i'm also wondering when this damage will occur.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

about the same time the damage will happen to the current owner of my old 944 which had the K&N in it for the entire 250,000 + miles I drove with it .. and still waiting for those particles which might have gotten trough to eventually have an adverse effect on the engine.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif[/img]

not saying it's impossible, just that I'm relying on my own experience to trust that the K&N in extensive, daily use has not caused the slightest problem as far as I can tell.. but in fairness ,I drive 80% highway and 20% well paved
city streets for the most part - no rural roads or near the beach where there is lots of sand, or on gravel, or in dust storms, and so forth ..

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[S_Cal968]

I'm glad you 44 is still going, but until the engine is characterized/inspected, your point is kind of invalid. It'll still run seemingly fine with ~15% less compression, it'll just have less power.

When [or how long until] the damage occurs depends on the environment that the car is driven in. I drive though an agricultural/farm area just about everyday, it's very common to drive through clouds of dust. And, for this reason I often check my air & hepa filters and tap out the dirt. Sometimes I don't bother to wash my car, it gets dirty within a day or 2.

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[flash]

well, mine spent the first 3 years in the keys, the next 6 on the coast of lake michigan, the next 4 at the beach in palisades, and the last 2 here - still cranking at 198lbs

at this rate, as others have said, i'll be dead long before the car

it has been pretty much the same story for every car i've ever had too - over 40 cars and about a million miles, including off-road - no damage to any engine as a result of the filter - i don't know what else to say

seems like a moot point to me - sounds to me like somebody was trying to blame something on somebody, rather than take responsibility for lack of proper maintenance - i always hear complaints about performance products from people who can't afford to buy the car in the first place, or try to mickey mouse things and cut corners - i never hear the guy with the ferrari whining about his air filter causing his engine to fail

whatever - i don't make a dime from k&n, so use whatever you want

for more on their testing:

http://www.knfilters.com/air_filter_testing.htm

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[ds968]

<!--quoteo(post=76774:date=Aug 3 2009, 06:46 PM:name=S_Cal968)-->QUOTE (S_Cal968 @ Aug 3 2009, 06:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm glad you 44 is still going, but until the engine is characterized/inspected, your point is kind of invalid. It'll still run seemingly fine with ~15% less compression, it'll just have less power.
When [or how long until] the damage occurs depends on the environment that the car is driven in. I drive though an agricultural/farm area just about everyday, it's very common to drive through clouds of dust. And, for this reason I often check my air & hepa filters and tap out the dirt. Sometimes I don't bother to wash my car, it gets dirty within a day or 2.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

lol, we don't know if it's still going, I hope it is, but it was going pretty well when i sold it. as for the power.. no argument there, if indeed the particles may have an eventual effect on compression and it's not so drastic that you'd feel there is a "problem " , I guess that's a valid point.. but again, no one has proven that damage is attributable to this specific filtering difference and not numerous other factors that might have cause premature engine wear..

and re conditions - yeah, under those circumstances, just to be safe I probably would stay with the paper filter

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