[Gotter]

OK, I get that the K&N flat filter in conjunction with the airbox mod is popular, but how does that compare to the K&N cone filter? Any real difference? I've thought about switching over, but other projects were more important...

Thanks in advance!

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[DaveN]

Enjoy the read and keep your money for a real upgrade IMHO.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm

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[flash]

i can tell you from application specific dyno testing to determine that very thing that the K&N flat filter WORKS - it is responsible for almost half of the 11.8hp gain from the airbox mod

read the airbox mod article

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[DaveN]

The thing that always scares me though is that if the K&N filter breaths that much better then how much more road "grinding compound" is it letting through? Do I want 5 more HP or scored cylinders and compression loss down the road.

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[flash]

just because a filter flows better does not mean that it lets anything dangerous through - the design is different than a standard paper filter - the gauze is able to stop the same particulate matter with less material - this means better flow - after about 30 years of using these kinds of filters, i have yet to see anything get through that was close to being able to damage anything

the key is in the oiling, and doing it correctly

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[xrad]

yep. second above. And, with proper oiling, they actually cause more and more dirt to stick so that the 'filter holes ' get smaller. This is why cleaning K+N type filters is a must to retain original flow pattern. I have not found another filter oil I like better than the original K+N spray red oil. I actually use it to store engine parts because it sticks so well.

PS: I had a very nice stainless mesh and chrome cone type filter. I think Airbox mod and K+N does a better job at getting the right amount of cool air to intake.

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[flash]

i does - we measured that too

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[xrad]

hehe Flash: we agree on something! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]

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[DaveN]

It just always takes me back to my '58 Beetle and it's messy oil bath filter. The technology seems too retro. Adding to that the scheptic in me that says "K&N is just bilking you with their over-prices special filter snake oil". I wonder if olive oil will work, it's great on salads [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]
Maybe I'll revisit the topic if there is 5 more horsies in there.

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[flash]

i have no idea what kind of oil they use (looks like diluted tranny fluid to me), and i agree that it seems like old technology - however, it does work, so i run it - i'l take more power anywhere i can get it

as for overpriced - if you oil it properly, and clean it regularly, this is the last filter you will ever buy, so over the life of the car, it's actually a lot cheaper than the paper filters

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[S_Cal968]

I question the net savings - you still have to buy the oil and cleaner - paper filters are relatively inexpensive.
I've been running a K&N on my GMC and found that 409 works the same as their high priced cleaning solution.

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[flash]

i don't use their cleaner either - i do use their oil, but only because i've been too disinterested to figure out what it is

i am on the same spray can of oil i've had for 10 years, and the same filter i got when i bought the car over 6 years ago - so, one filter and one kit - total investment $60 (filters are now up from the $42 i paid to $64, so the total today would be $77)

given that you are supposed to change your air filter every year or 10k miles or so, i would have spent $105 on paper filters, so the K&N has already paid for itself 2 years ago, even at today's prices, and i will be saving that price of a paper air filter now forever

more power, less cost - seems like a no brainer to me

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[S_Cal968]

You can easily extend the life of paper filters by just tapping out the dirt - only takes a few minutes. I get a lot more than 10K out of paper filters...
Paper filters are ~$18-20 and you don't have the hassle of cleaning an oil filter and don't have to worry about MAF contamination. Of course the performance gain is nice - there's pros & cons to both...

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[flash]

it is a hassle, but it also works better, so that tradeoff for me is fine

the stuff you knock out of the paper filter certainly helps, but it's the stuff that is deep inside that does the real clogging - a quick manometer test will show you just how much of an effect it has - it's weird, because you can't see it, but it's there screwing things up nonetheless - we did such testing when we did they dyno testing of the airbox mod - i was really fairly stunned at how clogged a used filter was, even though it looked pretty clean, after having been banged out and blown out - we put in a new one and saw a significant difference in flow

i clean my filter more often than most, and consequently have a better flowing filter all the time, but it is maintenance

a good analogy for this would be a standard vacuum cleaner - with a new bag it has it's maximum flow, and seems to work very well, but it very quickly loses the ability to pick things up as the bag gets clogged, and you have to run over that same thing 3 or 4 times before it grabs it - this happens long before the bag gets anywhere near full

paper just isn't as good of a filter membrane - it clogs easily, and isn't cleanable - it is cheap though, and if you change them out frequently enough, they do the necessary job

still, you can do the math and figure out when it pays for itself, based on your own mileage and conditions - for me it was at the 3-4 year mark - for others it might be the 6 year mark

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[S_Cal968]

I doubt the K&N is a finer filter, [traps finer particles] vs. a paper filter, [I've owned several and even when properly oiled I can see light through it]. The fact the K&N flows more is because it's less porous. As a K&N gets dirty the porosity changes as the dirt adherers to the oil & mesh - after which it actually filters better, but flow is slightly reduced. Since a paper filter catches the finer particles there may be a potential to clog under severe conditions, however the particles were prevented from entering the engine - which is important to many.
Perhaps the drop can be seen on a manometer, but it's negligible to most drivers. I may get 20K out of a paper filter and don't feel a significant drop in performance over the life of the filter.

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[DaveN]

I'm interested in Flash expanding on MAF contamination. Is this a problem if you re-oil your filter improperly (saturation)?
Don't think I want to be cleaning the MAF all the time and risk damaging it.

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[flash]

maf contamination was a problem some of the 928 guys had, and then started an entire bashing campaign about - the reason they had problems was the way they applied the oil - it used to be in an aerosol can - a couple of lights "dusts" of the spray, and you were done - then they changed the packaging to a squirt type container - k&n didn't change the instructions - this resulted in over-oiling

the key is to put that oil in a spray bottle, and apply in a fine spray, and very lightly - you are not supposed to soak the thing - when you get a new filter, it is pre-oiled - take note of how much is on there - that is how much to reapply

as for cleaning the maf, that's very easy - remove maf - using crc maf cleaner, spray on wire and inside maf - allow to dry fully - reinstall - all done - pretty hard to screw up as long as you remember not to touch the wire at any time, or try to start the car while it is still wet

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[PorscheDude]

I think most contamination come from
a. Over oiling.
b. Oiling both sides of the filter.

The oil builds up on the MAF filement and changes it's resistance or the ability to
send it's signal back to the ECU quick enough for reaction.

I do not care about cost. You guys are debating saving or
spending $150 over the ownership of the car. Big deal.

Flash and Daves data is good enough for me. 3 years of pure enjoyment!

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[RS Barn]

We're cleaning MAF on stock cars that run poorly.
The stock oil vapor recirculation into throttle body has a blowback into MAF. This is equal to or more than any K&N oil that gets sucked onto MAF.
Pick your poison. Better running and MAF cleaning or poor running and MAF cleaning
Pete

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[PorscheDude]

MAF cleaning it is!!!!

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