[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='craigawoodman' timestamp='1343222217' post='129955']

Cloud - even if the only competion is with yourself - driving the doors off something is still a lot of fun. For those of us who don't have mega $$ to be able to buy power and performance - it is all about honing our skills (and sometimes upsetting the apple cart).

[/quote]



I agree. There's a driving academy two miles from where I work (let the drooling begin...), where I can go for a 20-30 minute sessions as often as I want. I'm typcially on the track with Z06's, high-end 911's, all types of fast BMWs, Lotus's, you name it, so while these sessions aren't "competitive", I still get an incredible rush from trying (and ofter succeeding!) to keep up with these impressive machines in my lowly 20-year-old underpowered, overweight GT. I can only imagine how it's going to be once I get it back out there after the highly extensive mods (especially in the suspension and with regard to weight reduction) are complete.

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='craigawoodman' timestamp='1343222217' post='129955']

If all else fails, $5k for a supercharger is peanuts.

[/quote]



Or $500 for a nitrous set-up <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.png" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

lol - and $1200 for new rods, $2k for new pistons, $2k for new valves.......................

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[Cloud9...68]

I'm not so sure, although I'll quickly add that I'm not an expert on the subject by any means. I remember reading an article in Roundel many years ago written by a guy (a modest, middle-aged man, as I recall) who was looking to add a little power to his E30. After considering the options, he went with a low-level nitrous injection system, and, as far as I know, lived happily ever after.



If the goal is adding horsepower, does the route you go really make a difference in terms of engine longevity? For example, let's say you want to add 100 peak hp to your 968. To get there, you'd need a fairly hefty boost level out of a turbo (I'm guessing upwards of 12 - 15 psi), or a large dose of nitrous. Certainly either of those would signifiantly impact longevity, even with serious beefing up of the internal components. But let's say your goal is more modest, like maybe 50 peak hp. You could get that with a low boost turbo or supercharger, or a much lower dose of nitrous. Putting aside the inconvenience of having to periodically fill up the bottle (depending how often you stuck your foot in it), does the nitrouos approach put any more strain on the engine than the boosted approach? Isn't horsepower horsepower, regardless of how you get there?



And for the record, I do have a new set of Wossner pistons, forged Pauter rods, and I've coated the piston tops, combustion chambers, valve faces, and exhaust ports with ceramic by Swain Tech. I'm not considering adding nitrous any time soon (if ever), but as a concept, I'm wondering if its use in small doses couldn't be a viable option for a track day car where the goal is just a little more power to dig out of slow turns, and a bit of extra oomph down the straights. After the driver's skill level has risen to the level of the car's cornering capability, or course. Just wondering (and veering off topic...)

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[Monstrous4Banger]

[quote name='Cloud9...68' timestamp='1343245506' post='129983']

And for the record, I do have a new set of Wossner pistons, forged Pauter rods, and I've coated the piston tops, combustion chambers, valve faces, and exhaust ports with ceramic by Swain Tech. I'm not considering adding nitrous any time soon (if ever), but as a concept, I'm wondering if its use in small doses couldn't be a viable option for a track day car where the goal is just a little more power to dig out of slow turns, and a bit of extra oomph down the straights. After the driver's skill level has risen to the level of the car's cornering capability, or course. Just wondering (and veering off topic...)

[/quote]



Dude if you got all that for internals, might as well pick up a used 951 motor, and swap out all the top end stuff. Add a new turbo, and management and have gobs of power. Really wouldnt be much more. Lindsey has cheap kits for turbos, etc and you can pick up a 951 motor for less than 1k.

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='Monstrous4Banger' timestamp='1343247604' post='129986']



Dude if you got all that for internals, might as well pick up a used 951 motor, and swap out all the top end stuff. Add a new turbo, and management and have gobs of power. Really wouldnt be much more. Lindsey has cheap kits for turbos, etc and you can pick up a 951 motor for less than 1k.

[/quote]

I'm confused. First of all, I don't want to throw away the head I've just had rebuilt, in addition to having ceramic coated. Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly.



Also, I'm really not looking for additional power at this time. My main priority on this car is to dramatically improve its cornering capability, giving me something to "grow into" to use as a vehicle to learn the art of track driving/racing. To that end, I've made radical upgrades to the suspension, wheels, and tires, and have taken about 200 lbs out of the car. At some point in the future, when I feel like I've wrung everything I can from the car to maximize exit speed, I will probably be looking for more power, but if I'm racing competitively at that point, the class rules will probably prohibit that, anyway.



I brought up the topic of a light nitrous injection as a possible relatively inexpensive way to add a smidge more power down the road for use on track days, without going through all the cost and headaches of forced induction. It would have the additional benefit of being easily removable for races. But I'm getting WAY ahead of myself, as the car is a long way from even being driveable; just thinking out loud...

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[Monstrous4Banger]

Yeah I see what youre saying. Its just that youre pretty close already. My cars are basically pure street, I didnt think about regulations for racing classes. You can use the 16v head. Then all you would need is everything from the head up, and manifolds to turbo it. Which you can buy a whole 951 motor with everything on it for under a k. If you wanted to keep the 16v(which you could sell to offset a good chunk of the cost of turbo bolt ons) you would just need to custom weld an intake up, or buy aftermarket. You have the proper internals, everything else is bolt on is my point really. If you wanted big power, youre not that far from it. Nitrous is a good way to have a smidge of power on tap. My buddy runs NOS on his vette. Its cool for him cause he autocrosses, and it can be turned off or on.



You can also convert the windows to manual. Electric windows make for dead weight.

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[Rap]

I'm in trouble. While at the shop to get my car tech checked for Watkins Glen I ran across a car that someone I know is selling. A 94 964 3.6 modded turbo. Close to mint and 36000 miles on it. When I went to pick up the 968 the service manager asked me if I wanted to take it for a spin. OMFinggod. Sick fast doesn't come close. I just called the owner because I m told the hp is north of 500 and I have some other questions. Punch it and your at 90 in what seems like a couple of seconds. Talk about having to hang on! I need to confirm the price because there was some question to that. I was thinking of getting another car that I could drive to the track, drive the DE and then drive home. The guy I bought my 968 is also friends with the owner of this car and said maybe the answer is looking right at you. Track the 968. This is a rare car. Maybe 1500 worldwide. If I have my info correct. Not that many imported into US. Sound familiar? So should I break the piggybank and then live on PBJ's? And of course then work until 80!

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[Cloud9...68]

I'm convinced mankind would be well served if the WHO made it a top priority to eradicate this "track bug" virus from the face of the earth. It leads the poor souls it infests to financial ruin, dangerous obsessive/compulsive behavior, renders its victims unable to use the restroom without a copy of Grassroots Motorsports at hand, and just generally completely takes over the life source of its hosts.



Seriously, that sounds like one bad-ass machine. So are you looking at the 911 as a street car, and converting the 968 to a track car? Only a real putz would consider doing something like that... wait a minute... I resemble that comment <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/ohmy.png" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/tongue.png" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[Rap]

Or a good 12 step program. So I just got off the phone with the owner. Only 403 of them produced. Dyno at 408. B&B exhaust, no catalytic converter. Spites flames. Lowered suspension. So here's the good news. Oh praise the lord bless me Jesus. I can't afford it. Whew dodged that bullet. No PBJ's foe me the rest of my life! I'm looking for a different car to drive at the track, dual purpose car. So I don't mess up my queen. Wonder how long that idiocy will last?

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[Cloud9...68]

Yeah, sometimes it's best to pass on something that's likely to cause a lot of buyer's remorse. Car people are often quick to recommend the spending of other peoples' money on toys they really can't afford (not sure if this happened in your case here, just sayin').



I was going to sell my 968 and buy/build a Toyota MR2 turbo as a track toy, before I found how little my 968 was really worth. I can't think of a car better suited to that purpose - they're relatively cheap, bullet-proof, have practically unlimited tuning potential, and they're Toyota's for goodness sake, meaning they're, well, bullet-proof. You could build one that could easily give that 964 Turbo a run for its money for a fraction of the cost.

[quote name='Monstrous4Banger' timestamp='1343254059' post='129990']

You can also convert the windows to manual. Electric windows make for dead weight.

[/quote]

That's the second great suggestion you've come up with (after the manual sunroof idea). I assume it would involve getting my hands on a manual mechanism from an old 944, right? Do you have any experience/tips for this?

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[Rap]

Buyers remorse. Why never! This would strictly be a financial decision. The 968 was a I want, a feel good, I've waited long enough decision. Hopefully this will be more balanced decision! Lol it was just hey have you thought about it this way type of recommendation. I agree about the Miata but I want to stick with some sort of porsche.

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[Monstrous4Banger]

Only comes in black, but plastic paints easy these days. http://www.paragon-products.com/Manual_W...ow-kit.htm

Again, probably wouldnt hurt to shop around. Try ebay UK even.

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[Monstrous4Banger]

[quote name='Rap' timestamp='1343268456' post='130008']

Buyers remorse. Why never! This would strictly be a financial decision. The 968 was a I want, a feel good, I've waited long enough decision. Hopefully this will be more balanced decision! Lol it was just hey have you thought about it this way type of recommendation. I agree about the Miata but I want to stick with some sort of porsche.

[/quote]



Eh, your well balanced 968 is capable of running circles around that rear engined glorified beetle any way......with boost of course.

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[Rap]

Certainly in the twisties. I've driven Flashes cars and the blue in particular which was very quick. I'm not sure the sc would outrun this car. The owner only tracked it once and said it was a handful. The 968 like Pablo's always amaze me. I'm not interested in raw straight line power overall anyway. But boy was it fun. The salesman knew nothing about the car, had never been in a Porsche let alone this one. Told me he had never been in such a long test drive-30 min. The rarity appeals to me with the possibility of selling it for more in a couple of years, but the current initial outlay is more than I want to pony up.it was a fun way to end the day!

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[craigawoodman]

Normally power windows are lighter than manual windows. You don't need the winder and gear rack, etc.



The CS came standard with wind-up windows, but not sure how much if any weight was saved.



There is an article on the 964 Turbo in GT Purely Porsche (I think) this month. The tester writes about trying to do 170mph on a banked track when it came out and how it compares to a 993 GT2 in terms of its ability to potentially kill you. He likened it to going out with an absolutely beautiful homicidal maniac - the thrill might be worth it.



I dont know what you would have to do to get an MR2 to have a top speed that would challenge a 964 Turbo - but it would be lots.



As for Nitrous - you cannot use it on a racetrack over here.

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[rl968]

There was an mr2 at my DE two months ago. It was the fastest car in my run group, which is mid level. Don't know what he had in I, but no way I could keep up. I suspect it had similar hp, but looked like it weighed about 1000 lbs less.

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[craigawoodman]

If ultimate performance on a track is the aim, buy a Caterham 500 or an Ariel Atom V8. Low centre of gravity, low weight and big power. Low comfort.



If ultimate speed is the aim - go drag racing - top fuel dragsters simply blow everything else to the weeds.



It all depends on the circuit type and layout. Some favour big HP, some favour handling, some a combination of both.

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[Cloud9...68]

All true, but I maintain that for an overall track car that's within the realm of affordability (which disqualfies the Atom), a 2nd gen MR2 is hard to beat. People have wrung 600+ hp out of those engines (primarily for drag racing applications - obviously longevity would be severely limited with this much boost), but 350-400 hp is achievable reliably and reasonably affordably. And it has a very light, mid-engined chassis which I'm sure with the right tuning could be made to corner better than anything this side of a formula car. If I could have gotten a halfway reasonable price for my 968, this would have been the route I would have gone.



If you really get crazy with this stuff, it almost seems like you need three cars: One purely for the street, one pure race car that complies with the class rules, and one all-out track day car (a la the V8 conversion rlips is currenly building). Plus the trailer and tow vehicle. And the land to store them all. No wonder so many people collapse these all down to a single multi-purpose vehicle, and live with the resultant compromise.

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[flash]

lol - wait until you drive a formula car. at that point you will probably give up on any type of production class. they all just seem so slow by comparison.

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