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[color="#000000"]In each of the two cases being protested the defendants ("victims") appeared to me (in the Gardner video at least) to be resisting arrest. [/color]
If an officer detains, and then decides to arrest, the only correct behavior is to comply, gather all information about the office (name/badge number) and remain silent, except that you must give your name (in some cases).
[color="#000000"]The minute any other action was taken the officer had the right to use "necessary force" to accomplish the arrest. Naturally, there are competing definitions of necessary, but if these individuals had simply dropped their hands and allowed themselves to be cuffed, they would be fighting this in court today, and not dead.[/color]
[color="#000000"]Jay[/color]
“Faster, Faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death.” - Hunter S. Thompson
"I couldn't find the sports car of my dreams, so I built it myself." ~Dr. Ferdinand Porsche
"968Forums, a quaint little drinking community with a serious horsepower problem"
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn-out, shouting, 'Holy sh*t! What a ride!'"- Unknown
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This picture was going around in the email.
Roland
'93 Coupe Tip Silver on Grey, '02 911 C4S, '89 Vanagon Syncro -- (RIP: 944, 911SC, 931, MGB, VW Bug, GTO, Sprite.)
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[quote name='94SilverCab' timestamp='1418143592' post='164318']
In each of the two cases being protested the defendants ("victims") appeared to me (in the Gardner video at least) to be resisting arrest.
If an officer detains, and then decides to arrest, the only correct behavior is to comply, gather all information about the office (name/badge number) and remain silent, except that you must give your name (in some cases).
The minute any other action was taken the officer had the right to use "necessary force" to accomplish the arrest. Naturally, there are competing definitions of necessary, but if these individuals had simply dropped their hands and allowed themselves to be cuffed, they would be fighting this in court today, and not dead.
Jay
[/quote]
Actually, that is an incorrect statement of the law. A citizen has the legal right to use reasonable force to resist an illegal arrest. And who is going to pay a lawyer to "fight it in court"? Don't expect a public defender to have the time to tilt at windmills. And all a public defender can do is get the criminal charges dismissed. They are not going to file a civil suit to right the wrong. And most civil attorneys will not take these type of cases on contingency.
I've been in the Florida Keys for the last two weeks, blissfully (and deliberately) detached from the news, so I am admittedly way behind the curve on the protests, etc. What I do know is what I don't know. I wasn't there and I haven't read the grand jury transcripts. The only info I have, and I submit anyone on this forum has, is what has been reported in the media. From my own experience doing criminal law work for 27 years, including numerous "high-profile" cases, if the media gets the story 40% accurate, they are doing an unusually good job. (I don't mean to media bash - it's just the reality of human communication, remember the child's game "telephone"?) The arguments back and forth have to do with politics, prejudice, anger, etc., but in the great scheme of things ultimately have little to do with the actual facts of any particular case.
Bill
P.S. The above picture is offensive and racist. I'd bet dollars to donuts it is photo-shopped. I am disappointed that I have to view such dreck on my car forum.
'93 Horizon Blue Metallic Cab
'58 Triumph TR3A (sold)
'06 Lexus RX400h Hybrid
Lots of guitars
(This post was last modified: 12-10-2014, 03:38 PM by
lbpesq.)
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Bill,
I hope you don't advise your clients to determine for themselves if an arrest is legal or illegal before they attempt to resist. I'm sure it would not go well in many, many cases...the simple fact is, if you are being arrested, do not resist or you will be arrested forcibly.
I have not read the transcripts from the Brown case, but the Gardner video is everywhere and it is very clear to me that he pulls his hands away from the arresting officer, that is resisting arrest, plain and simple. I would also posit that his act of pulling away may not have required 6 armed police dragging him to the ground, that in my estimation, was excessive force. But then again, I was never responsible for cuffing a 6' 4" 300 man...
As always, JMHO,
Jay
“Faster, Faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death.” - Hunter S. Thompson
"I couldn't find the sports car of my dreams, so I built it myself." ~Dr. Ferdinand Porsche
"968Forums, a quaint little drinking community with a serious horsepower problem"
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn-out, shouting, 'Holy sh*t! What a ride!'"- Unknown
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Jay:
Unfortunately, I have to advise my clients to always be nice to cops because they have guns. And, in my experience, while there are many competent, qualified, and reasonable officers, there are far too many cowboys who think they are the law unto themselves. Also, unfortunately, our criminal justice system mindlessly backs them up and even encourages police misconduct. In my profession there is a saying that our criminal justice system is supported by three pillars of universal truth:
1. All defendants are guilty
2. Cops lie
3. Judges ignore no. 2 because of no. 1
I looked at the Garner video for the first time after reading your above post. It was disturbing, to say the least. First, he was attempting to reasonably discuss the problem with the cops who appeared to ignore him. A good cop would have at least attempted to speak with the guy before resorting to what appeared to be unnecessary force. Then, if they wanted to arrest him, proper procedure is to inform the suspect they are under arrest and ask them to comply. Here, it looks like the cops just started grabbing him. The man was backing away holding up his arms. Throughout the incident that was the full extent of his "resistance". Even if there was probable cause to arrest him, the subsequent police action appeared to be far excessive than necessary. Of course I would advise anyone in that position not to resist - but not because it is illegal to resist, but rather the cops are often out of control and you could wind up dead, or arrested with drugs or a weapon planted on you (yes, the cops do such things).
While many well-to-do people in their little gated enclaves may love the cops because they help keep the riff-raff out, far more people in this country live in fear of the cops as this nation has many of the accoutrements of a police state. And if the system gives these bad cops a free pass, one would be foolish to expect anything less than protests that often devolve into violence. It's human nature. We are not nearly as intelligent a species as we would like to think, especially when the herd mentality comes out.
And don't take this to mean that I support the protests either. In truth, I don't know all the facts, and my training and experience have taught me time and time again that, when it comes to these type incidences, any opinion based on anything other than the facts is worthless.
Bill
'93 Horizon Blue Metallic Cab
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'06 Lexus RX400h Hybrid
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Many businesses now do performance reviews every 6 months, and some of the more responsive ones at least where I have worked (read: higher performance companies and successful) every 3 months.
Perhaps we should have mandatory voting for all elected people (oops, almost used the term "officials" which would have been a mis-characterization) every 3 months. And for bureaucrats (oops, sorry, slightly derogatory, not PC, did I mean government employees? Hmm...), we should have mandatory voted performance reviews every month. It should all be electronic, you get to fire or keep each government person each month. Oh darn, I forgot, there are exceptions, government union members should have a sit-on-your-butt job for life!!!
The part that gets me the most is: "he served his country for 25 years". Usually this means he sat in an office from 9-5 starting at 20 years old until 55 years old when he got much more than full salary pension. I still don't get why some of the media thinks that government employees "serve" their country when in fact these days most of them are serving themselves. Oh, and, please respond, which professionals here on the forum get overtime? Anybody? Thus we can conclude that government workers who get overtime are not professionals.
Wake up folks, now government employees earn more than the middle class! It is the end of our country, there is no more country, it is every man for themselves. Frikken banana republic now. Who knows, I have almost stopped caring, either the media are corrupt, or the government employees are corrupt -- probably because they have their own email servers in the basement.
Roland
'93 Coupe Tip Silver on Grey, '02 911 C4S, '89 Vanagon Syncro -- (RIP: 944, 911SC, 931, MGB, VW Bug, GTO, Sprite.)
