[Pauli]

Flash & Pete,

Thanks for all your hard work and dedication on this project. Your timing could not have been better for me. Micheal Rose of Tillman's Engineering in Santa Rosa is working w/ Pete at RS Barn to bring "new life" back into my otherwise mint condition cab. I have had the car for over 7 years and have driven it a sum total of 452 miles - now that is pathetic! I love the car, but just thought it lacked that "fun factor" that I was looking for.

I was recently invited to be a test driver for the Robb Report car of the year (Basically, we hosted a dinner at the winery, so they asked me if I was interested in taking part in testing all 13 cars) "Interested, are you kidding" - I now know the true meaning of a nano-second. Anyway, after driving among others - the new Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Mercedes AMG, Iconic GTR roadster (0-60 in 2.9 seconds - OUCH!!) I came away w/ the feeling that I really preferred the styling of my cab every bit as much as any of those cars I had driven. It just didn't make you say "WOW" in the performance department like these cars did. That is when I contacted Michael to see what could be done.

Michael has spoken w/ Pete about doing the whole 9 yards - the Super charger, cams, exhaust, headers, flywheel, HD clutch etc... I'm in hopes that I won't long for that 365 Daytona Spyder quite as much when all is said and done.

Thanks again to all the contributors of this site - the information is invaluable - hopefully, I can share some tips along the way as well.

If anyone is looking for a Northern Cal destination Rally in the Spring, I would be happy to host it in the Napa Valley at the Winery (Flora Springs) in St Helena.


Paul

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[94SilverCab]

Hey Paul,

I read that article...I would still have a smile plastered across my face (have one on my face now just thinking about it)...NICE!

Jay

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[flash]

i wondered how long it would take before somebody started thinking about monkeying around with the kit to try to get more power - lol - i figured it would at least be after we let one out there though

the output of this system will be the most power available with this unit while retaining reliability and streetability - if there is more, we'll do it

we need to take a reality break here

pauli - while i am very excited about this project, and look at it as the answer to somewhat the same issues i have with the car, i fear this will not be your answer - this will certainly provide for huge performance increases, and put the 0-60 in the sub 5s, with good second off the 1/4 mile times, but it isn't going to make that kind of power - the big issue is the fact that we are talking apples and oranges in torque values

no matter what you do with ANY kind of system, you will NEVER get into that territory of acceleration and retain any sense of reliability with this engine

this super charger will NOT be capable of the big numbers needed to provide that level of performance - period - in a perfect world, with the most efficient engine design, it has an absolute ceiling of 400hp, assuming nothing else complicates the process, which is highly unlikely on this car

we have talked about a higher output version, but again, it would only be about 385hp, and would require a LOT more money be spent to get there, and would NOT be streetable - we really do not want to discuss this one right now though, because a LOT of work needs to be done to see if it can even be viable - it is really only an idea at this point, and may never come to fruition

as for cams and such, pete and i have discussed this, and it is possible that some cams might work, and might make more power, though it would take some extensive tuning, and likely require a lot more changes - cams that work on a normally aspirated engine don't always work on a supercharged engine - you need a lot less duration on a supercharged cam - cams that develop more power by allowing a more complete burn on a normally aspirated engine frequently cause damage on a supercharged engine because the burn lasts too long - it is really the exact opposite process in cam tuning - having done a number of forced induction cars, and melted my share of valves by using the wrong cams, i hesitate to make any comments on how well anything would work with this system - i really would need to get a pyrometer in there first - further, there is no chance that any kind of cam will pass emissions in california, and in 2010 many of the exemption areas disappear - you could go through all of this and then not be able to register the car

my recommendation would be to pop down here and drive my car with the unit on there when it's done and see for yourself if it's enough - if anybody is looking for optimal performance it's me

something else we need to let everyone know is that doing this may void your insurance policy - some policies prohibit modifications like forced induction - collector's policies are good examples of this - one of our members here has already found this out and will have to make a decision between his stated value collector's policy and a traditional policy - you need to check with your carrier to see if this will affect you - do not just assume that "if they don't know, nothing will happen" - if you total the car and get hurt or hurt somebody, and an investigation of the wreckage shows you did this against the policy rules, they will not pay the claim - you could lose your house - you would be much better off changing companies to one that does not care - we cannot make such recommendations, as insurance laws vary widely from state to state - you will have to do that research on your own

as for a spring wine run - that sounds great - we are already planning our 7th annual paso robles wine run for april, but an earlier one or a later one would be a hoot - the whole reason i bought this car was because it could carry 2 full sets of golf cubs, 2 cases of wine, a weekend of luggage and my wife - we are always up for another such run and have talked about it a lot lately

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[FRporscheman]

Will this kit look original and innovative?

I hope all of your from-scratch engineering and development doesn't cost you too much. At $4k per kit, you must have free access to a dyno. Inventing a new design will surely take lots of time and money so I am surprised to hear it will be ready in less than 6 weeks.

Best of luck.

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[flash]

lol - no worries - yes, it will look as original and innovative as any centrifugal kit could - there have been kits out there for years, and in the end, they all look similar to some degree - there really isn't all that much where they can differ - it's not like anything is revolutionary or proprietary in the mechanical design - they all have a head unit, some brackets and some hoses - there are only so many places one can stick a unit, and they all need pretty much the same kinds of things - still, this will look different - it has no part in common with any other kit (other than perhaps some off the shelf items) - the brackets will be different as it is a different head unit - the plumbing therefore will also be different - the intake will be entirely different

it will not replicate anything currently out there as we do not feel that anything currently out there does the job the way we think it should be done - it's not like we are backwards engineering anything - we are doing a job that has not yet been done to our satisfaction - that was the entire reason for doing this

again, there have been kits for this car for years, and others for decades - this is not a new idea - this is only a new application of an old idea

as for the engineering work, solid works is your friend - there isn't all that much to have to do though - i'd already done most of the design work 5 years ago - drawings should be done in the next few days and prototype parts not long after that

the dyno time is quite manageable - no fear there either - pete already knows better than anyone who has ever thought about such a kit how this engine works and the quirks to watch out for and deal with - tuning will be relatively easy

6 weeks may be wishful thinking due to the holidays, and i am now a few days behind due to the flu, but would otherwise not be an issue at all - it won't be all that far past that point though

as for the pricing, we have a different philosophy on that - we are not looking to make back the development costs on the first unit of anything we do - we believe that we can do that over time - we are also not pricing it with huge markups - we believe that due to this system being so complete, with every last detail attended to, that volume will take care of any profit margin issues - no need to be greedy - we feel it is far more important to see more people enjoying their cars and becoming long term friends and customers than grabbing every dollar up front and then them disappearing - personally i don't do this for the money at all, and purely for the satisfaction, so my portion of effort isn't factored into the equation of cost - i dump anything that ends up coming my way right back into the next project

so, fear not - we know what we are doing

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[Kim]

My car has about 325,000 km but the head gasket and valve guides were done about 40,000 km ago. Is my car too old for this sort of "foolishness" (I am feeling very foolish, however).

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[flash]

there are a number of factors involved, and with any forced induction you must consider them - it is never wise to add forced induction to a tired engine

as with any significant performance upgrade, always make sure your engine is in top running condition - any issue you have will only be amplified with forced induction

any loss of compression will directly affect the output levels - worn valve guides and valve seats will not provide the level of performance that fresh ones will - if yours are like this, we highly recommend a valve job - think of it as a chance to really give yourself years of fun

any carbon build up can adversely affect the running condition - we highly recommend a full run-rite treatment prior to doing this to remove the carbon

that being said, the age of the engine isn't as much of a concern as the head gasket - we are already seeing an abnormally high occurrence of disintegrated head gaskets in standard engines (like every single original gasket pete has seen when pulling a head) - time is an enemy here

we recommend that if a head gasket is more than 5 years old that it be changed

we aren't using a lot of boost, and there is no reason to think that if everything is running well that any issues will arise - however, as with anything, the harder you drive, the more wear and tear - the more load, the more wear and tear

there is no free lunch

kim - but to answer your question, if your bottom end is in good shape, it sounds like you've already done the other stuff

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[Kim]

I am told that my bottom end is just marvelous, thank you - but I fondly digress to more car oriented thoughts.

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[94SilverCab]

"Will this kit look original and innovative?

I hope all of your from-scratch engineering and development doesn't cost you too much. At $4k per kit, you must have free access to a dyno. Inventing a new design will surely take lots of time and money so I am surprised to hear it will be ready in less than 6 weeks."

Hey Arash,

Thank you for asking...My money says that this kit will look as original and innovative as the strut brace, undercarriage brace, short shift kit, chassis brace, cat-back, header, custom designed software, heat shield, tonneau cover and every other design modification that this team has brought to market. Every single one has been thoughtfully and carefully designed and fully tested. In the event that any component ever failed to perform flawlessly, the components were replaced at no charge. Since all of these products have become ubiquitous on these cars I can well imagine that RSB/D1R will have a long chapter when the history of our 968's is written. I wouldn't worry about them footing the development costs and effort, somehow they've managed to find support for all of the other projects.

I put these guys way ahead of the cackling idiots who between the two of them can't pull 3 cars together.

Stick around man, this is going to be good.

Jay

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[Pauli]

Flash,

I guess I should have made myself more clear regarding the above cars that I had mentioned - Quite frankly w/ the exception of the S63 AMG, I found most of them to be totally impractical (I might not kick them out of the garage however) but you get my point. I am by no means looking for, or expecting that kind of "WOW". If that were the case, I'd probably consider dropping a "built" LS1 into a 365 Spyder replica, but I digress. I'm really more interested in retaining the 968's personality and driveability, but at least capable of giving you a little lower case "wow" every now and again.

Since my car is a virgin (no mods) I'm sure as things progress w/ the development etc.. , Pete and Mike will be on the same page regarding some of your concerns regarding cams etc.... and ensure that it will be a balanced system.

I'm tentatively planning on being in LA on the 19th of Dec - If you are around then and available, I would love to take a look at your car if schedule permits.


Paul

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[biotechee]

Arash-

Why don't you be so kind as to share your real thoughts?

I am sure you are being sincere in your post...

Or perhaps you would like to keep your true, sincere feelings for the viewing of others, and only post here when you feel the need to dig??

Other SC kits have obviously missed the mark for one reason or another (usually for more than one reason). I welcome the promise of a well thought out kit that maximizes the 968. I wish Bob and Pete success.

They are certainly on the right track in terms of marketing - no doubt.

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[flash]

no worries - we want everyone to know exactly what to expect - it is in nobody's interests to mislead anyone or paint a pretty picture that turns out to be something entirely different - there has been enough of that already with other people who have tried to make kits for this car that ended up "needing a bit more tuning" etc

pete and i will also be working hand in hand on anything else we think might add to the kit - we are always looking at anything we can do to improve things - if cams do that, we'll be looking at cams - frankly i have not even looked at the cam specs of either the stock cams or any of the ones pete has been working with to see what to expect from them when supercharged, so i am not saying anything one way or the other about any of them - again, i just wanted to be clear about expectations

i will indeed be around on the 19th - love to have you pop by - i'll make sure that the car is running, and i'm not in the middle of something, though the supercharger will not be installed - in fact, i won't even be firing up the kit on this car until after pete gets it, tunes it, and then we adapt it to my car - it will be a real tease for me, but that's the way it is

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[flash]

as for what looks to become a bunch of mudslinging if we let it, i'd like to stay focused on the kit itself, and step aside from that nonsense - we all know there are a few sour grapes attitudes out there that can't stand that we continually succeed at providing products that work and that the 968 community likes, and will take any opportunity to take pot shots - we are used to that - no worries - the products speak for themselves

the bottom line though is that anybody else COULD have come up with this project and done it the way we are - they certainly had the time - nobody has chosen to do so - i have always said that i would have preferred that somebody else would do it - frankly i would much prefer to just buy something than to have to develop it, and have stepped away from this project a number of times - i have always encouraged others to step forward and take up the baton - to date nobody has been willing to make a complete kit that addresses all of the daily driver issues and the desires of the customer base as we see them

fine - we will

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[flash]

another thing that you can be sure of is that we will remove variables in our testing and development

we won't be developing this on an old tired engine, with worn valves and such and low compression, then tweaking and tuning it, and then send it out so that somebody can put it on a car with a fresh head and full compression and subsequently blow it up

we also won't be testing and developing on a modified car and then expecting people to get those numbers on their stock car

the test mule we will be using is a tight running car which has a fresh head and very nominal numbers - it's the perfect baseline for such a project

we will make sure that all of the test parameters are recorded and factored in so that everyone will have a very real expectation of what will happen on their car

this sounds like so much fun, i may just find myself in PA for some dyno tuning

we will also be testing it on the track (though i'm not sure which track, as the season may not be conducive to east coast track time)

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[cosimo]

I beg to differ in that others are not working on viable solutions to adding more power to our 968s. There is a program that will produce an increase in HP. Since we are not sponsor yet it is not right for me to tout the organization. I have a lot of respect for what you and RS Barn have done for the 968, But you are not the only ones.

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[flash]

well, again, we have not see a single development that meets what we see as the needs of the customer base - i'm not slagging anyone in particular, nor picking apart anybody's efforts - there are plenty of people who have tried or are trying, but they have all fallen short of what we see as "the mark" - this can be subjective, but we think we have the finger on the pulse of the market

we think that it is NOT about merely an increase in horsepower - it is about a transparent and fully streetable system that makes power where most people drive most of the time, gives up no features, comforts, serviceability or reliability, and is truly affordable - what we are doing differs in that the car will not drive or operate any differently than it did before - it will just do it faster

anybody can build a system that makes big numbers on a dyno - apparently not everybody seems to be able to make it work on a daily driver basis - we think most people have either overshot what the market wants in search of bragging rights numbers, and/or priced their kit so high that most people can't afford it

we are approaching this from what we feel is a more realistic perspective

i had this idea 5 years ago, discussed at length using this unit, and almost got into a joint development project with the same shop where we did the chip testing, and where i learned about this unit - i went so far as to almost pull the trigger - then i got snagged up in CARB craziness and dropped it - at that time, nobody wanted such a thing either

then over a year ago i started talking about it again, even going so far as to define and describe exactly how i was going to do it - still, CARB was a problem, and still not enough interest to justify the project

then somebody else took my idea (not that it was particularly original) and tried it - it isn't the way we would have done it, but it at least supports my theory that it would work

the missing component all along my route was RS Barn - the ability to tune for this was always the missing link, and something i always had concerns about being able to adequately manage - the nuts and bolts and such are relatively easy on any such system, regardless of which unit you use - there is no rocket science there - it's the all-important tuning that makes this work the way it should - this is "the guy" for this project (but we all knew that already)

now, together, we will just pick back up this project and complete what i started all those years ago

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[FRporscheman]

Bio,
I don't know you, or your deal. I don't think you know me or my deal so please don't misunderstand me, and please do not insinuate that I have any ulterior motive in my post. Whatever my "feelings" may be, I put them aside and ignore any possible bias towards one side of the coin or the other. Which is what I always do when I come here. That's the polite and proper thing to do. Unlike certain rude users who roam elsewhere to sling crap and start fires. I am content to hang out where I hang out and I start no issues with people that hang out elsewhere or where they hang out so please leave me alone. Have a great holiday.

Flash, thanks for the reply. I'm sure you will develop something that people will love. I know you're smart enough to accomplish what you put your mind to. So I eagerly await the result of what you put your mind to. And I am sincere when I wish you luck in that.

Jay, you think you're cooler because you can summon the most 968s? Calling my friends idiots isn't great incentive to make someone stick around... They are really good people just like I'm sure you are. Don't turn the rift into a border.

I wish you all a happy Thanksgiving break. Get away from this crap and enjoy your weekends.

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[flash]

i think we all need to relax - we all want to see cool stuff for these cars - we all have our own ideas of what that should be - there is plenty of room for multiple ideas

a buyer is entitled to buy whatever he wants, and as long as whatever product is represented as what it really is, and not something it isn't, i have no issue with anything out there - that doesn't necessarily mean i like it or want it, but i certainly don't care if it's out there

i could care less how many people buy this one - i'm pretty confident in how we will do with it - the bottom line though is that i'm making it because i want it on my own car which i intend to keep as long as i had my last toy (25 years) - i'm not looking to build it and dump it like happens to so many of these conversions - i'm only doing it so it can be reproduced because a number of others want what i want, which is something that makes the car more fun to drive, that won't have to be tinkered with, doesn't change the character of the car, is daily driver reliable with no feature loss, will be legal to run, and won't cost an arm and a leg

that doesn't mean that there aren't others who want something different - no worries

p.s. - feeling better - diving back into this project fully tomorrow morning

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[flash]

i made a lot of progress over the weekend - i have most of the stuff worked out - i have a meeting tomorrow for one component, and then i can finish the bracket drawings

i'll start on the airbox as soon as i finish those

i'll be ordering the "off-the-shelf" stuff tomorrow as well

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[Joel968]

So is this kit going to be developed on the west coast or at RS Barn?

Cheers, Joel

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