[DaveN]

Unfortunately there is the cost of changing your head gasket on top of that, qui? I looked at my engine today, that suckers a LONG way down. If I ever have to go there the cost of new cams, valve springs, stage 2 chip etc. might as well be in the re-assy cost. Any realistic est. on that figure? Wait - ok, I'm sitting down. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif[/img]

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[Cloud9...68]

Plus new connecting rods if you have a 92 (and maybe an early 93), which requires removal of the pan, obviously, which is about an 8 hour job. Still, this is a phenomenal deal, compared to alternative means of coming up with the same power-to-weight ratio, one of which is the purchase of a modern car. It really helps if you can do your own work, though, and have a chunk of time, as the vast majority of the cost involved is labor.

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[flash]

if you have a shop completely redo the head, and add new cams, you are looking at a bit over $5k

if you do it yourself, you are down to about half that, but you will need some special tools to do the job properly

to put it all in perspective though, to which cloud alluded, let's say you start from scratch, buy a 968, rework the engine, and add the supercharger, as well as the brakes and bracing for it - you're still in for under $30k and would have one heck of a monster, and all fresh and new - what can you buy new for $30K that would do what this car would?

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[ds968]

Depends on the shop but you can be easily looking at 5k + , without new cams . I definitley agree with Bob on the value statement - I for one don't think you can't find anything comparable under $ 30k even as the car is now ( I don't mean you can't find a faster car under $ 30k, I mean one with all the attributes of this car in total ), so with an SC - if that's what you're inclined to do - you'd start looking at $ 50k + , IMO

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[flash]

before this gets into a very off-topic discussion, here's how i got to under 30k:

purchase average car at $11k - $12k (sorry guys, that's what they are going for)
purchase new head and cams from pete - $3500
have shop install new head and cams - $1500-$2000
bracing - $400
brakes - $750
supercharger $4k

with all that, i'm only at $22650 - that leaves a lot of room for any other issues

with that, i'd like to exit the "build it again" portion of this discussion and move back on to the kit itself

i am headed down to the garage later this morning to finish the last bits of the mounting design, and then send off the drawings - this is getting very exciting, as i am now realizing that i am now in reality VERY close to firing it up - if all goes right, i should at least have it all mounted in there and ready for testing in time for the superbowl party

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[flash]

i had to move something to create a bit more safety clearance, which of course caused 4 other things to change, but i've got it worked out now - i will wrap up the offset bar and triangulating bracket tomorrow, and then everything will be off for fab

i'd show you a pic now, but it would give away a secret we've been waiting to share that will show something special that nobody else who has made a kit for this car has ever done, that will make for better drive, less belt tension, and longer life of all bearings - only a few more days though

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[rxter]

"what can you buy new for $30 that would do what this car would"

Totally OT, but you asked. My better half fell in love with an 06 SL500 yesterday. 45K miles for $30K. Of course it won't do what this one can. I told the sales guy it was a lazy man's sports car - just mash your right foot......

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[flash]

ah, but i asked "what can you buy NEW for $30k that would do what this car does?"

i specified new, not used, because following the guidelines above, the car would be essentially rebuilt at that amount, and more like new than used

if you threw another $10k at it, it would be completely new in all mechanical respects, and would only potentially be cosmetics left, and another $10k there and it would truly be a new car

lol - there's your $50k dan

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[ds968]

Yup - $ 50k and a then I might consider a Ferrari 360 GTS , or a nice DB7 ..in lieu of a 968. But then the maintenance / repairs would be three times as expensive, in addition to the PITA finding good mechanics for either one. BTW , neither handle anywhere near the 968, so add another $ 25 k to that tag.. ok, OT now, but you started it ! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

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[flash]

since the sun went down, and the wife isn't home yet, i'm in the middle of working out the parts list right now - tedious but necessary work - it keeps me on track with the spreadsheet and let me know i'm still on pricing target

i'm in gauge hell though for my own car - i'm still trying to figure out which gauges to use - i'm not using a lot of boost, and all the boost gauges anticipate much higher numbers - annoying - finding 3 that will all work together is tough - i'm giving up on the A/F gauge, as it really won't be necessary once everything is tuned - i don't really like the vacuum/boost gauge that goes with the set i have now, but that is likely the one i will end up getting, just because it's the easiest thing to do

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[jfrahm]

I personally would not get too worried about the condition of the motor before supercharging. OK the rods might bend, the head gasket might blow, or maybe it won't. Engines are $4000, why spend $5000-$8000 making sure you won't break your current motor?

Head gaskets don't usually blow so much as burn. Keep detonation and mixture in control and it won't burn. In NA cars head gaskets usually corrode away due to neglect. Don't neglect.

If you are in there doing some work on your motor then sure, spend the extra time/money on some rods and a head gasket but don't be limited by what might happen. Don't boost your motor if replacing it will send you into the poorhouse, but otherwise boost, but boost responsibly.

Most of the blown-up boosted cars are owned by people who overboosted without supporting fuel and knock control and/or decided to run the boost way up beyond what is sensible. Before you spend ten grand upgrading for boost, throw a few hundred at a top quality water injection system and boost your 1R rods and see what happens.

Naturally you want good oil pressure, no vacuum leaks, clean injectors, etc. though.
-Joel.

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[flash]

obviously we will take the conservative position, and recommend against boosting a tired engine - so does every responsible supercharger manufacturer and kit vendor

the underlying problem is that every original head gasket out there is deteriorated - it is a problem that is starting to show itself - in speaking with pete in detail on this one, he said that EVERY head he has pulled that had an original gasket showed severe deterioration of that gasket - this does not bode well for boost

that doesn't mean that every engine will blow up, or that anything tragic will necessarily happen, but there are 2 things to consider here:

1. if you boost a tired engine, bad things happen when that pressure escapes into places it isn't supposed to (like past the rings and into the crankcase)

2. boosting a tired head gasket and then having it blow can result in far worse damage than if it blew normally aspirated - warping a head is a lot easier with boost than without

something else to consider if you develop a kit on a tired engine, is that once you refresh that engine, the boost level will go up and you will likely have a whole lot more work to do to get it back under control

that is why we are developing on a tight engine, and testing again on another tight engine

i am not worried in the least about detonation - we will make sure that won't happen - timing will be fixed and not user adjustable - mixture will be set and not user adjustable - the boost level will be set and not user adjustable (no user pulley change possible) - not really much of an opportunity for anything to go wrong unless there is so much carbon in there that the compression numbers are already high, in which case since we will recommend a full run-rite treatment prior to doing this anyway, that would also be mitigated

we are leaving no stone unturned - that is why this is taking so long - getting it right is a lot more involved than just slapping some gear on the engine and crossing your fingers that the next guy doesn't have a problem

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[jfrahm]

I understand the need for legal boilerplate for products going up for sale but honestly it's never safe to increase your HP by a large percentage and it's always safer to stay on the sidelines. Yes, you should do this and you shouldn't do that and nope, don't eat the silica gel.

As for warping a head after burning a headgasket, yes this is possible but it requires that you ignore both the temperature gauge and the big red light in the middle of the dash. Don't do that either.

Boosting an engine that is already pretty darned high performance is not for everyone. It's never going to be safe, it's never going to be smart. Fun though.
-Joel.

p.s. I've eaten the silica gel.

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[flash]

all very true - if only people would do the prudent and safe thing - then we wouldn't have so many people popping belts because they thought "it'll be ok", or warping heads because they thought "i can make it home"

p.s. - i've been dumb too

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[flash]

well, i'm just waiting on the oil cooler to arrive so i can knock out those brackets

the last drawings for the mounting bits go out this morning

lots of stuff ordered and should be here tomorrow

hopefully only a few days for the machinist to knock out the prototype parts

i start on the airbox today

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[biotechee]

Are you still on target for your price point?

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[flash]

absolutely

obviously i can't guarantee how long that will hold, as i have no more control over component pricing than anyone else, but at least for the first run and first couple of months, i see no issues

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[ds968]

abandon the whole project, here's the new holy grail : a 50 to75 HP increase with this electric supercharger for only $ 299 ! So much for the Vortex turbofan plans ( though it looks it's one of the components of this miracle product )

http://www.engineperformancechip.com/perfo...er-2-5-psi-p-16


[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]

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[flash]

LOL - FUNNY

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[biotechee]

Glad to hear you are still on target....

And now that you have serious competition at a price point below $300, I'll have to reconsider my future expenditures.

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]

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