[Eric_K]

I have always enjoyed Excellence. I expect entertainment from it, not a scientific journal. Frankly, I even like looking thru the ads. This thread is crazy. If you don't like the magazine, don't buy it.

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[flash]

well said

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[Chris Vais]

WOW

This sure has been an interesting "conversation". I do concur with The Mirrors comments. It doesn't bother me that the 968 doesn't compare well with some cars, even some other Porsches. Like most of the members of this forum, I bought what I liked for reasons that I am comfortable with. I like the car, I don't feel compelled to defend my choice, and I don't care that some 911 drivers don't believe that a refined, front engined, water cooled car can't possibly be a "real" Porsche. It is what I like, I am happy to own one. How many 911 drivers have people leave notes under their windshield wipers asking if I would like to sell the car?



I applaud Pete for joining in this "conversation". I think that many journalists would have written us off as a bunch of crack pots not worthy of additional communication. And Pete, I read every article that Excellence published on the 968s when the car first hit the market place. I thought the reports were honest in their appraisal of the cars strong points and weak points and I think the recent ones are as well. Those early articles sparked my interest in purchasing the car.



BTW the wine analgy works very well actually. I make wine as a hobby with my brothers. In order to get a sense of how good we are doing we regularly enter wine in the Napa and Sonoma County Fairs in order to have the wine tasted and judged. The ultimate "comparo" if you will. We always get the comment sheets from the various tasters back so we can see how we did. Always makes for entertaining reading and, no, you can't please everyone all the time. There are some judges that we will never please. It is clear that if I want to win a Gold Medal everytime, I need to produce hugely alcoholic red wines because that is what Robert Parker (Wine Spectator) tends give a 90 point or better score to. His opinion's matter so much that some wine makers will go out of their way to alter their wine making style and fruit sources simply to produce that big alcoholic red wine. At the end of the day what you like is a matter of personal preference based on prior experience, and other factors. I learned wine making from my grandfather and father who made wines in the traditional Italian style, more fruit forward, lower alcohol blends of Zin, Syrah, Carignane, and that is mostly what I make. So don't look for me on the front page of the Wine Spectator any time soon.

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[happysails2you]

flash --- lol! But I think you meant f*****g merlot? (just a Sideways comment <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> )



OK, so let's start a new thread in the non-related section about WINE! Loved your comments, Chris....and the best wine I had in Italy was whatever they poured in the carafe as their local house wine, so count me in. I'll take two bottles, please. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[RPM]

Golly. I go to the west coast for a few days and all hell breaks loose.



There seems to be something missing from this discussion that bears directly on any comparison test that involves a 968 and a 911 - THE 911 IS A BETTER CAR!!!! They have more power and when driven by an experienced driver are faster. Period. We can argue the fine points of this, but the fact remains. This was why the 911 was more expensive - it was better. Porsche could have made the 944/968 series more performance oriented (and did with the 944 Turbo S), but for a bunch of good reasons (mostly cost and the danger of threatening Carerra sales and value) they did not.



Now, before you unload on me understand, I chose to drive a 968 over a 3.2 Carrera or a 964. I thought that for my needs the 968 was the superior choice. I also had the chance to drive Flash's modified 968 cabrio last weekend. That sucker would win a comparison test with a whole bunch of 911s. But if you test a base 968 against a comparable 911, the 911 will most probably win - unless it is a test of comfortable commuting in Atlanta during the summer! I think that Excellence's outcomes, while they may sorta hurt the proven to be easily-bruisable feelings here in 968 World, are fairly accurate. The earlier 20K test did unfairly test a bone-stock car with some modified cars, but Pete fessed up a few months back that even he realized that was probably a mistake. This latest comparison is pretty straightforward - and the better car probably won - these are after all, just opinions.



Excellence is a great magazine. The Porsche community is lucky to have it - great articles, good tech info, fabulous photography, and good advertisements from companies we frequently buy stuff from. My affection for the publication is only raised by the editor's willingness to engage with us crazy 968 people.



And I have to say again, Flash's car is really fast - the lightweight flywheel makes an amazing difference. Damned thing revs like an S2000! I do wish that Porsche had been able to fully develop this car - the potential (as people like Flash, Raj, Damien, Erik K., and others have proven) is impressive.

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[Glau]

[quote name='RPM' post='32883' date='Mar 20 2007, 06:01 PM']There seems to be something missing from this discussion that bears directly on any comparison test that involves a 968 and a 911 - THE 911 IS A BETTER CAR!!!! They have more power and when driven by an experienced driver are faster. Period. We can argue the fine points of this, but the fact remains. This was why the 911 was more expensive - it was better.[/quote]



Ugh, I was just kind of taking that as a given. I would love to have a 964 or a 911 3.2 and would never try to argue they are better cars than a stock 968 coupe. If I was in the market for a two door hardtop a 964 would be at the top of the list. Especially if we start seeing nicer ones actually going for under 20k regularly.



I want to give Pete a public apology. Sorry if my previous post was harsh, especially to a guest on this forum. I deleted my previous post in case it fell into the senseless rambles group or is a part of the flogging. That was never my intention. The last thing I want to do is in anyway help drive someone with the knowledge of Pete away. SORRY!



The gist of my deleted post is really I was just annoyed by the market value comment in the 964 vs. 968 article and then to find it was one of the reasons why the article was done -- just got me I guess.



Glau

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[Mark]

[quote name='Anchorman' post='32866' date='Mar 20 2007, 04:37 PM']But, as I knew had to be the case, the drivers would know what they're driving (seems almost too silly to write), so any biases they have would still be there.[/quote]



Blindfold them <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

[quote name='Anchorman' post='32866' date='Mar 20 2007, 04:37 PM']My answer - naive as it is - is that this whole topic is much more ado than it's worth. I like my car - with the key word being - car! It's not my child, it's not my life, it's not my alter ego - it's a car. It doesn't really matter to me if someone thinks another - car - is better than mine, or that mine is better than theirs.



I haven't read the Excellence article, but from this thread I get the sense that the observations were pretty good, and it's primarily the conclusion that folks are objecting to. Fine - write a letter to the editor. Beyond that, I'm pretty taken aback by some of what's been written in this thread - which is why I've stayed away from it before - and why I'll stay away from it from this point forward.[/quote]

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[H2Ojazz]

It seems we are really flogging this mule. To risk repeating myself: these comparos seem kinda weird. The 968 and 911 are very different cars, in conception, utility, etc. I don't believe that 911's are "better," I believe they are a wholly different type of performance car and one's decision to buy a 968, a Boxster, a 911, or whatever is solely based on what one wants from that car.



I really do enjoy Excellence, even the ads. It seems to me, however, that the idea that one car is a "winner" or is better than another does a disservice to all. An ocassional article on 968's or 944's, 928's or whatever, pointing out what these particular cars were designed to do, how they have stood up, modifications, etc. would be of more value to readers.



The 968 is beloved by a small niche of us in the greater Porsche world for its performance, beauty, and, yes, its exclusivity. It is a car worthy of ocassional ballyhooing for its charms.



Then again, if I could ever afford a really nice 993 it would give me serious pause. But, seeing as I am a professional trombonist, that would seem highly unlikely. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/blink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Peace.

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[flash]

ralph - if you do a little digging, you will find that the 968 actually cost more per unit to build - that is one of the things that killed the car - they couldn't make money selling it, even at the reduced prices - the 911 has historically been the highest profit margin car of any manufacturer



as for faster or not, it was my understanding that the 968 regularly beats the 964 on the track - i know i passed a few at PIR - lol - and by the way i was driving, it sure wasn't me - roflmao - and then i blew up my clutch



as for better or not, i guess that's really subjective - i wouldn't own one if you gave it to me - that rattly, twichy, hoover sounding, front end floating, ass dancing, engine on the wrong end, car is the last thing i would consider owning - also, i'm a cab guy, so that paints an entirely different picture of what i would consider "better"



i could have had just about any car i wanted when i bought the 968 - i chose it because i felt it was a better platform than anything else out there - front engine, manual trans, rear drive, 2 seat, ragtop, with good AC, and nice curvy lines - for me there was really no other choice



lol - oddly though, i have recently caught myself looking at a 996 turbo - hate the 997, but am warming up to the 996, but only in turbo trim - if only i could get the engine up front...............

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[wingers]

Any chance of a down load of the magazine, if it is ok with the editor chappie that replied.

Would love to pass on my thoughts good or bad on each.

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[flash]

ok - bought it - read it - nothing out of the ordinary - very predictable results - nothing to get wound up about either



i still don't understand the desire to choose a 964, but that's me - i hate them - always have and probably always will - heck, i'd take a datsun 510 or a 240Z over a 964 any day of the week and twice on sundays, but i'm a very odd duck who, with very rare exception (and all of those being mid engined and extremely expensive), insists on the engine being in the front and the drive in the rear



lol - by the way, if there was any doubt left, i would NOT be a good choice in a shootout test of these cars

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[sbdrivingdotcom]

Bought it and read it too after more comments on this comparo than mine. I too, do not see what all the fuss is about. Excellence does a good job on their comparos but let's face it, it's not just guys that work at magazines that think 911s are better driving machines than 968s, it's the general public as well. Let's get over this and just enjoy our cars for what they are, very well made, fun to drive, useful Porsches. I'll hold up a few Lowenbraus for that!

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[flash]

just a note, in light of a different recent chain of events



excellence has written at least 10 articles about the 968 over the years (a LOT more than i thought) - i'm not sure i even found them all - my next move is to go to their website and search the back issues page and order all of them i can find

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[RPM]

I finally just read the article in full. By in large it had only positive things to say about the 968. The final decision was a wash and so they went with tradition.



I was intrigued by their discussion of 968 values as "fully realized." What the heck does that mean?

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[sbdrivingdotcom]

It's a nice way of saying that they are not going to go any higher. While that is true of the everyday drivers, I could see low mileage garage queens increasing steadily as demand far exceeds supply. I'd love a 10,000 mile cab or coupe but there just aren't many of those around.

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