[Ed@Excellence]

Wow, just thought I'd check in here again. Good to see that both magazine and myself are being flogged. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/dry.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Most magazines do indeed make money by selling ads, but there is something else that must be considered -- something that a lot of magazines forget: Readers first. If you do not have the respect/following of your readers, you will not have the circulation numbers to "sell" advertisers.



The fact that we're willing to offend 968 owners (though it gives us no joy to do so) should tell you something.



Next, Excellence is a rare magazine in that we actually DO make money on subscriptions instead of subsidizing circulation with cheap subs. So each and every one of them matter to us. And I'm very sorry to see a few of you go to overseas competitors, but then that is every bit your right to do so.



All of the accusations prompt some questions:

-How many voices did we have in that $20k shootout?



-Wasn't Jarrod's weighed the same as the other three, despite his lack of professional testing experience?



-Should the 968 have won in both of these comparos? Were you there, did you drive all the cars? Or are you speaking from 968-only experience? Or bias? (I recognize some of you are, and some of you aren't)



-Did or did not Excellence highlight the pluses and minuses of ALL cars involved?



-Could it be possible that, when 911s have won comparo tests, they have done so on merit?



-Could it be that there actually is a reason why 911s keep charming people despite all of their inherrent disadvantages?



-Could it be that Excellence has called non-911s the better car in the past (916 vs. 911 RS 2.7... Boxster vs. 911...)? Sloniger was outspoken in his preference for the 968 in its time...



-Should Excellence cover every model perfectly equally down the line, page for page? Can it? Have you considered all aspects of charting such a direction? Authors? Subject material? Impact? Etc.?



-Could it be that it makes no sense whatsoever to try and please one group over the other?



-Could it be that, by introducing the "double-blind" concept (which has its merits, to be sure), you end up with a lack of skilled pilots and/or worthwhile observations? Liabilities? Representative sample: 5, 25, 100? Those editor for a day tests in some books are really next to useless....



-Could it be that the logistics and liabilities involved in putting one of these things together are more involved than you know?



-Could it be that you forgot/didn't know all the unfortunate circumstances leading up to the way the 968 for the $20k shootout was chosen? Some were my fault, and I owned up to them in print, at rennlist, at PP, and here -- and apologized for them. Are we beating a dead horse? I guess there is no forgiveness here. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />







What I won't do is hang out for a not-so-friendly character assasination or a nice lumping into the "journalist type" mold. As for my personal integrity and professional objectivity, I'm not going to convince you one way or another here. But perhaps my actions over the last decade will speak for themselves:



-Wrote/published an article calling out an advertiser's claims, only to find out they were false.

-No free product accepted.

-Continued criticism of new models when criticism was due. PASM, RMS, eGas, and the list goes on.

-Personally naming a Mercedes SLK 55 the winner over the Boxster S (987).

-Putting out all of the information to be considered/sniped at when publishing comparos.

-I suppose there are others...



But, perhaps none of this matters. I've instead been accused of coming with "nice language" and "pissing in your boots."



Despite this, I wish you well. But perhaps it was a mistake to come here. I certainly meant no ill will...



pete





[quote name='Beachboy' post='32786' date='Mar 19 2007, 11:06 AM']In any event the magazine publisher doesn't give two hoots about letters to the editor. Want the answer? Follow the $.

Why does it bother us. It's just simply dishonest.[/quote]





How can you say this?!? I'm not going to lose sleep over this, but you are wrong.



pete



[quote name='SDDave' post='32691' date='Mar 18 2007, 02:45 PM']But when you are told by numerous people that your bias is showing, I think you need to just explain the reason behind the 911-centric concept, and take it from there.





If ten women break up with you because they say you're a jerk... you very well may be a jerk. In any event, it's probably not them.





And coming off with "You guys crack me up" may not be the right response. You have multiple readers stating publicly that they will not renew their subscriptions to your magazine, and this "cracks you up".



Dave

San Diego[/quote]



-Because just because they say it, it doesn't make it true. And because we don't have a 911-centric concept. There is already a magazine for this...



-Not sure that this is a fair comparison/analogy/etc. to apply.



-My statement was an attempt at levity, and one misinterpreted here by applying it as you have. Also before the thread turned nasty. Nothing about losing readers "cracks me up."



pete







[quote name='VGM911' post='32510' date='Mar 15 2007, 10:28 AM']To the Editor of "Excellence"



Having read the three-car comparison piece (986/911/968) as well as the most recent May article (964/968), I found both stories to be fair appraisals of all five cars. The writers' comments and observations were, for the most part, "spot on" and provided much insight into the capabilities (and shortcomings) of each car driven. In that sense, it matters less to me which car was pronounced the "winner."



The energy in this forum stems from the pride and passion we have for our 968s. Does it sometimes blur or color our objectivity? Yes, for sure, and you'll find similar pride and compassion in the various threads on the Rennlist boards...the 993 owners, the 996 owners, the 986 owners, etc. But in the end, I suppose it's good that Porsche has such loyal and devoted owners of Porsches, in general, and of each model, specifically.



Thanks for connecting with 968forums again and for sharing your thoughts and ideas about how you approached each article. Your interest in talking to 968 owners will not necessarily convince everyone about the validity of the results and conclusions of the tests, but you convince me that you are a "stand-up" guy doing the best you can, and that "Excellence" represents one of the two finest periodicals that I read, the second being "Hemmings Sports and Exotic Car." Thanks, Pete.[/quote]



Thank you. I/we deeply appreciate these words.



And I agree about the passion and pride reflected in this forum, to better and worse ends. I understand about loving particular cars. And even those other people don't "get"... 914, XR4Ti, WRX, 986...



pete

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[Mark]

Pete- Sorry you have taken a beating here, personally I appreciate your coming online to answer folks. Some of the people have gone over the top and I understand if you don't visit again, heck I've given up on this subject here myself.

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[Ed@Excellence]

[quote name='Beachboy' post='32745' date='Mar 19 2007, 07:16 AM']Anyone claiming that they don't have a bias is like saying they don't have a brain. And journalist types are the ones most deeply into it and resent being called on it because they like to project the image of being unbiased observers. Beacuse they write it down and spread it around it's up for examination, which is fair, given they get our money for doing it.

I dropped my subscription to excellence because it just didn't appeal to my interests in the car. And the obviously cock-eyed comparisons just add to it. The three car comparison was so far over the top skewed against the 968 that it was laughable. Ed's defense was weak if not funny.

As an engineer, Flash's suggestion is the most valid if you want a real comparison. "Double blind" is the key to any scientific, that means factual, comparison of anything. Generally it means the guys giving theb tests don't know which is which and the people taking it don't either.

As expert as you guys at Excellence are on Proches it's weak to say that you couldn't come up with cars that are at least close to being on equal footing equipment and condition wise. Then it would be a simple matter to have different types of drivers give their take on the cars and list their past car experience to give perspective to the tests.

All that said I think Flash gets down to the meat of the matter that Ed dances around with some nice language. Excellence is in the business of selling advertising and it doesn't pay to dis 911's. And anyone who says that's not a factor is foling themselves to economic reality.

But it's all fun to jabber about.[/quote]





Ouch and ouch. And ouch! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/huh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



And, largely, untrue.



And not so fun, really. But perhaps it is fun for you.



pete

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[TheMirror]

For the life of me I cannot fathom all these anti-968 conspiracy theories!



The newest one is at least 12 years old everyone.



They sold almost none of them in the US due not only to high equipment levels and ample competition, but high prices attributed in large part to a VERY unfavorable exchange rate in those days.



The model line is dead, and for a reason. It just didn't turn on the public, and got too expensive to produce. TKO.



All this slagging of Excellence mag is way out of line. 911s of all ages are awesome cars, and there are probably 1000 of them on the racetrack for every one 968. There are a thousand different ways to put one together, with nearly endless aftermarket company support.



Everyone does realize that most of the same companies that do 968 aftermarket parts also do 911 business, right? Pelican, Kokeln, Performance Products, Bilstein, etc. etc. In fact, the only true 100% 968 aftermarket specialist (covering engine, suspension, etc.) in the US is RSBarn. Can someone name another who does as much as Pete does with that shop (and thank God for you, Pete!)?



Seriously, I can't figure out why everyone thinks the 968 has to lump out on top of comparison tests. I also can't figure out why it matters.



When it comes to the point of calling the Editor of the magazine dishonest, or blantantly biased, how is that not over the line? It ashames me.



-Mirror

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[Renalicious]

Although I haven't read the article, I personally don't care which car wins: each car has it's pros and cons like people said; I'd love to have both if I could afford it. And I don't think there can ever be a completely unbiased comparison article. Well, I guess there can be, but then you might as well have a check list for an article.



Ugh, lets not turn this into a .net argument <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[94SilverCab]

Amen Mirror!



This site is remarkable for its (usually) civilized tone...I find these attacks offensive.



Off my soap box.



Jay

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[SDDave]

Pete-



I do have to stand with those who have applauded you for coming on and defending your position. It is a rare thing, indeed, for a business (be it magazine, chip maker, etc) to come out and try to explain their position, and not just stick with "well that's the way it is, so there <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/tongue.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> ".



I also don't think that the majority of statements made 'against' you were necessarily against 'you', but more about the overall concept of turning a profit. My comments were certainly more geared towards giving you the benefit of the doubt for having the bias in the first place, because I understand capitalism and free-market competition. I guess when it comes down to it, I'm defending Excellence BECAUSE of their bias, and applauding your ability to 'recognize' your largest group of constituents.



I think what has gotten most of the people here fired up is the seeming lacking of admission that there is a bias. I think you are taking that to be far more of a slander than it is. We're not calling you a racist for goodness sakes... just simply stating that in the Porsche world as a whole, there is and always will be, a bias towards the 911. Your magazine captures and represents that world. I personally believe that bias to be well-founded and easily supported when you look at the simple fact that there is no other car on the planet that has gone basically unchanged for 40 years and still sells like it's the hottest new concept at the dealership and flogs the 'newest and greatest' like they were standing still.



The problem again becomes when you make comments like "Just because everyone says something, doesn't make it true". Come on- we've all heard the concept of "perception is reality". I personally hate that concept because I don't feel that it is rooted in fact, but when you get enough people perceiving a thing, it does, for right or wrong, factual or not, become a reality.



Like I said at the end of my post, I love magazines like Excellence because they cover Porsches. As long as your magazine covers Porsches in general, you will have readers. All most of the people here are saying (including myself), is that let's just call a spade a spade, and enjoy that spade for what it is- a great magazine about the greatest cars to ever roam the earth in search of a curvy road and lots of speed!!!





Dave

San Diego

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[happysails2you]

So I'll just thrown in my two cents, too....Pete, thanks for caring enough to come to the 968 Forum and to post your comments. Sorry if you feel like you've been flogged, I think the folks here are passionate about their cars, and we sometimes are the stepchildren in a 911 world. But I agree we shouldn't argue this to death.



Like wine, everyone's going to have their opinion -- and wine magazines have to deal with both advertisers and consumers too, so I'm used to the 'suspect' opinions expressed, and there's no easy way to really have consensus about a wine, but it makes for lively conversation sometimes.



I'll be continuing to read Excellence for articles like the one on Ivan Arcola's expert work on that 911 last month (8 hundred something hp?!?!) or the YellowBird. Personally, I'm not too fond of comparo articles, it's really just hard to compare apples and oranges. Thanks again for your comments. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[TheMirror]

[quote name='happysails2you' post='32815' date='Mar 19 2007, 05:15 PM']Like wine, everyone's going to have their opinion -- and wine magazines have to deal with both advertisers and consumers too, so I'm used to the 'suspect' opinions expressed, and there's no easy way to really have consensus about a wine, but it makes for lively conversation sometimes.[/quote]



Ah, good taste I see!



We've got a 2005 Copain Syrah Santa Ynez Valley Harrison Clarke Vineyard and a 2005 Owen Roe Syrah Columbia Valley 'Ex Umbris' going right now. Lemon Pepper based marinade on the roasted pork and a Creole Vegetable Stew is on the menu. Both wines are singing. Sorry for the thread hijack everyone, but wine shouts as loud as Porsches, from where I sit.



Cheers,

-Mirror

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[Darth Vadar]

Perfectly stated... And I like the analogy to wine!



And yes, I will still be reading every issue of Excellence, comparison or no... Great photography, interesting info, all on my favorite car subject, so why not?



Life goes on...we must agree to disagree on this topic!

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[VGM911]

[quote name='TheMirror' post='32809' date='Mar 19 2007, 04:28 PM']For the life of me I cannot fathom all these anti-968 conspiracy theories!



The newest one is at least 12 years old everyone.



They sold almost none of them in the US due not only to high equipment levels and ample competition, but high prices attributed in large part to a VERY unfavorable exchange rate in those days.



The model line is dead, and for a reason. It just didn't turn on the public, and got too expensive to produce. TKO.



All this slagging of Excellence mag is way out of line. 911s of all ages are awesome cars, and there are probably 1000 of them on the racetrack for every one 968. There are a thousand different ways to put one together, with nearly endless aftermarket company support.



Everyone does realize that most of the same companies that do 968 aftermarket parts also do 911 business, right? Pelican, Kokeln, Performance Products, Bilstein, etc. etc. In fact, the only true 100% 968 aftermarket specialist (covering engine, suspension, etc.) in the US is RSBarn. Can someone name another who does as much as Pete does with that shop (and thank God for you, Pete!)?



Seriously, I can't figure out why everyone thinks the 968 has to lump out on top of comparison tests. I also can't figure out why it matters.



When it comes to the point of calling the Editor of the magazine dishonest, or blantantly biased, how is that not over the line? It ashames me.



-Mirror[/quote]





Very well said, Mirror! Thank-you.

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[Beachboy]

Just to add some perspective; this is about cars people, ("play" cars at that) calm down.

I've never met Pete but I'm sure he's a nice guy. He sure does have a nice line of work.

The wine analogy is spot on as my business involves wine. The business is full of folks who are self appointed wine experts, some quite snobby about it. They have their own language with all types of rating systems that are published with the sole purpose of... you guessed it, selling high priced wine. This should be no surprise. They are far removed from the average wine buyer.

When there are, on occasion, double blind comparisons the "experts" are quite often baffled by wine preferences that buck the critics' trends. The most famous of all was when a California wine was picked over all the top French wines decades ago in a double blind test. Conspiracy theories? For the French (the wine experts) it was more like war.

Ed's preference toward using "experienced" drivers makes my point. My gosh, we couldn't ask ordinary people to drive these cars, could we? Do Porsche dealers ask you if you are experienced before they "allow" you to buy a Porsche? It would be appropriate for "experts" to do the tests and it would be more appropriate for ordinary type folks that would consider buying a Porsche to also test and compare the results.

My bias is quite simple. I'm 6"3" and don't fit in either a 911 or a Boxster very well. One of my qualifiers is two guys, two golf bags, luggage for a three day weekend without the likelihood of a trip to a repair facility. 911 flunked, enter 968... for me it was that simple.

Just as simple was the three car comparo. It was cockeyed in favor of the 911 and very easily could have been a lot better, apology accepted, you knew better then, you did it the way you did. This is a 968 site, what do really expect?

I'm criticizing the writing, specifically comparo test methodology, not the guy. I'm sure Pete is a terrific guy and he has a fabulous job.

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[rhudeboye]

[quote name='Beachboy' post='32830' date='Mar 20 2007, 06:18 AM']Just to add some perspective; this is about cars people, ("play" cars at that) calm down.



I'm criticizing the writing, specifically comparo test methodology, not the guy. I'm sure Pete is a terrific guy and he has a fabulous job.[/quote]



This has been quite a post. I tend to get excited myself when talking cars and my blood pressure rises even more so when I’m told that things are not the way I see them. It’s a human reaction when you’re passionate about something. At the end of it all I walk away from the conversation smiling as I was talking to another car enthusiast. There were a few trenchant remarks aimed at Ed that was a bit over the top. So I agree w/ the above. Defend your position by attacking the issue not the person.

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[Ed@Excellence]

[quote name='Beachboy' post='32830' date='Mar 20 2007, 06:18 AM']Ed's preference toward using "experienced" drivers makes my point. My gosh, we couldn't ask ordinary people to drive these cars, could we? Do Porsche dealers ask you if you are experienced before they "allow" you to buy a Porsche? It would be appropriate for "experts" to do the tests and it would be more appropriate for ordinary type folks that would consider buying a Porsche to also test and compare the results.[/quote]



I'm not sure I agree that the wine-tasting vs. car testing analogy holds.



And, by the way, we'd like to think we ARE "ordinary people" here at Excellence. But...



-Experience in and knowledge of other vehicles counts (coming from a 996 3.4 to a 996 3.6 is probably going to be more revealing about the new car than coming from only a 914. What can you compare it to? Would you know how the impacts of the 996 3.6's wider rear tires play out in terms of understeer?)



-Liabilities are considerable with drivers we don't know. Who can underwrite this? And for road testing?







That said, I *do* see the value in what the average person thinks about cars. I just have yet to find a way to filter through the deluge of information you'd get (along with the time it would take to collect it)...



You could, of course, go strictly by the taste-test method's mandate: popular opinion is right. But is it? In the case of wine or coffee, I might agree that it *probably* is. But what about art? Literature? Cars?



If it was, wouldn't that bring us full circle on 911s vs. 968s?



The bottom line: we were willing to ask the question and -- whether you believe me or not -- name the 968 as the better car had it outperformed the 911 in two separate tests with four out of five drivers. It didn't.



And if you're too tall for a 911, then you have no dilemma, do you? And, besides, I already addressed that in my first article months ago...





What "cracks me up" then and now is that, in a world filled with car magazines that have sold themselves out to advertising and "circulation," people accuse a magazine that hasn't (but certainly isn't perfect!) of blatant bias and crooked methodology...



... and then advocate magazines that take free product in exchange for editorial and/or do stories on companies and shops, some with VERY checkered histories.



It doesn't crack me up anymore. It scares me.



"A bit over the top" doesn't begin to cover some of the comments here. Nasty and, in some cases, nonsensical is probably closer in many cases. But I guess I've got to take the good with the bad and learn from it.



So no hard feelings, but I think I'd better be going. I still like 968s, still think a lot of their owners are probably great guys and gals, but the hostility and lack of circumspection here does not make it a fun or sensible place to be.



To those who run this place, thanks providing the chance for all of us to exchange ideas -- and you're always welcome for lunch in Novato. I owe you one.



pete

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[flash]

wow - this was certainly not the direction i would liked to have seen this go



nobody likes being criticized, especially about something that is close and personal to them - as people who care, it's often very hard to separate ourselves from the work, or whatever it is we care about (kids, dog, car, whatever) - i think the group could have done a better job of being constructive in the criticism, but unfortunately i doubt that the results would have been much better - i doubt there is a way for there to enough distance from the subject matter that would open the door for any significant change for us - i don't know that it would be in the best interests of the magazine anyway - it works as is - why change?



pete has done a great job at building a magazine for his target audience - he may not be aware of just how focused that audience is, or maybe he is, but nonetheless, the sales figures of the magazine and the cars speak for themselves - the 968 represents a very small percentage of porsche sales totals, and we can only expect a similar percentage of coverage



do i think that comparison testing should be double blind? yes, absolutely - do i think that experienced drivers are essential? yes, absolutely - do i think that porsche experienced drivers are essential? no - do i think they should also be included in the testing? yes - their input would help put things into a perspective the readers would appreciate



i think the wine analogy was dead on - i would no sooner expect my buddy the italian wine snob to react well to big alcohol california zins than i would expect my french wine friend to like the spicy italian stuff - similarly i would never expect a 911 fan to like a 968 - the best you could hope for would be "nice, but i still like my thing"



as for liability, i am sure there are companies offering policies - hartford probably does - other magazines certainly seem to have figured out how to do it - we see comparison tests all the time - those guys are often joe-bag-o-donuts drivers too - however, they aren't brand specific magazines, so that inherantly removes a lot of the model bias and preconception



i see both sides of the "free stuff" issue, and have heard all the arguments - there are valid points of view on both sides of that particular fence - personally, i tend to discount reviews of items that have been paid for, unless they also bought all of the competitors products - i also tend to ignore single product reviews - i immediately ignore them if i see an ad for that product in that magazine within the same 12 months - people tend to endorse things they buy over things they didn't - nobody wants to feel like they bought something inferior - taking the purchase out of the equation resolves that, however, it does require comparison to other products that were also comped



just because somebody endorses a product, and got it for free, does not mean we should ignore their opinion - professionals (atheletes, race car drivers, etc) get free stuff all the time - they have their choice of products too - do you really think they would choose something inferior if it meant the possiblity of losing? as somebody who hs been getting stuff from manufacturers for "free" for decades, i can assure you that i would not use it if it didn't work to my satisfaction - the cost of a product is so minor compared to the results, that it isn't worth it to choose something less than i can - however, we should not blindly take somebody's word for it either - we should let results speak for themselves (that is one of the main reasons i like double blind data only tests)



advertisers realize that we, as a buying public, make decisions based largely on the endorsements of others who have used a product - their successes and failures are largely responsible for our decisions - i don't think whether or not somebody got it for free (or that they even get paid for the endoresement) factors in much - it's been going on so long now that the consumer is pretty well aware



perhaps some of this exchange will filter in and find its way to the process - perhaps not



the reality is that most people do not appreciate this car, and there is not much chance of changing that - every time i let somebody drive it, they get it, but i can't exactly get around to the whole country, or even to all of the excellence readers - we would love to see more coverage of this car, because we all know how well it really stacks up against the 911, but there is little chance of it happening - porsche has done a great job of marketing the 911 - no way are we going to overcome that with a car that is no longer in production, and with no exposure - we will continue to have the red-headed stepchild - frankly, i'm fine with that



in either event, it would be a real shame for pete to take any of this personally and choose to avoid this site and its members



i will continue to buy and read the magazine when it contains something of interest to me - i will do it more if they start increasing coverage of modifications, local club racing, local events, and letters to the editor



lol - or if i buy a 911

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[happysails2you]

Alrighty then, now that this is put to bed, we're all going to Mirror's place for dinner and wine, uh, Saturday? Excellent menu and wine pairing, Mirror. Thank goodness for variety out there, I just want people to enjoy GOOD wine of any type. Nice to see other fellow wineaux here in our little 968 corner of the globe. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[Anchorman]

As a related aside - I can understand how you can "double blind" test wines. How would you double blind test cars?

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[flash]

kathy - as long as it's not merlot - oops - there i go being biased



jim - neither the editor nor the writer would know who the drivers were - they would be referred to, as an example, as "driver a" - the drivers would not know who the test was for either - the test would be conducted by a third party



i remember a company (i think it was nichols research) who did this kind of thing for other products - they would stop people in shopping malls, test products on them, get feedback, and never tell the people what it was for

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[Anchorman]

But, as I knew had to be the case, the drivers would know what they're driving (seems almost too silly to write), so any biases they have would still be there.



My answer - naive as it is - is that this whole topic is much more ado than it's worth. I like my car - with the key word being - car! It's not my child, it's not my life, it's not my alter ego - it's a car. It doesn't really matter to me if someone thinks another - car - is better than mine, or that mine is better than theirs.



I haven't read the Excellence article, but from this thread I get the sense that the observations were pretty good, and it's primarily the conclusion that folks are objecting to. Fine - write a letter to the editor. Beyond that, I'm pretty taken aback by some of what's been written in this thread - which is why I've stayed away from it before - and why I'll stay away from it from this point forward.

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[flash]

sure, biases would still be there, but remember, the ideas is that none of these drivers would be porsche drivers, and actually best served if they had never driven one at all, so there would be no predisposition toward one model or the other - they may all like the S2000 better, but that would not be as much of a factor in a model to model comparison of porsches



and i agree with everything else you have said

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