[H2Ojazz]

While I do subscribe to and read Excellence (and will continue to) I am increasingly convinced that the best Porsche Mag is 911 and Porsche World from the UK. Despite the mag's title there is often 968 and other water-breather content and respect.



The latest comparo convinces me that such articles are silly, ultimately. These are two very different cars, both worthy of respect, but with different appeal. With my limited budger I considered a 3.2, a 964, and an early Boxster, and finally decided on a car that was beautiful, quick, I could DE and take on long trips in, etc.



A better approach might be simple articles highlighting older models' strengths, problem areas etc.

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[RPM]

I am increasingly convinced that the best Porsche Mag is 911 and Porsche World from the UK

... And exactly the reason I stated the opinion that Excellence was the best Porsche magazine in the US . What I like about 911&PW is the very 'clubby' athmosphere the magazine projects. After a few years I have gotten to know the writers and their cars... and so can better understand their evaluations and opinions. I also like the Reader's Reports and the used car evaluations. Just a neat, and very British, approach.



With that in mind, Pete Stout at Excellence seems a fine chap. His spirited defense on this forum and others of a previous 968 article, along with his willingness to listen and engage with other enthusiasts, convinced me that he 'gets it.'

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[Eric_K]

I just got the mag last night and read the first bit of the article. What got my attention was that the author mentioned this site. That's cool. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

pete is a good guy - he clearly knows how to run a magazine - it has done very well



i talked to him recently and he was pretty bummed that he couldn't do an article on my car - right or wrong, in the avoidence of impropriety, the policy of the magazine is that they will not cover cars that have sponsors - that leaves me very much out

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[Ed@Excellence]

You guys crack me up. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



First, there's no bias towards 911s here. Personally, of four Porsches I've had, only one was a 911... I'll buy another one at some point, but only because I'll be needing four seats sometime soon. Even so, I'm just as interested in 944s, 968s, and 928s and have a LOT of respect for them. Of everything I've driven, my two favorite Porsches aren't any of the modern 911s I've spent so much time in. One is the C-GT, the other is a not a "Porsche" in strict terms, but Ruf's CTR Yellowbird.



Frankly, I'm not a front- OR rear-engined guy. I (personally) prefer mid-engined cars (probably my 914 roots at work), but have spent more than enough time in front-engined cars of all types as well as 911s to learn to appreciate/exploit/avoid their various virtues and vices.



So I don't think there's much bias, if any, against non-911s at Excellence. What there IS is nothing more than a recognition that more of our readers own and are interested in 911s than any other model.



BUT, define "911" for me these days...



901?

911 SWB?

911 until 1973?

911 from 1974-89?



Okay, let's go ahead and lump all of those together. Porsche did.



You've still got 964, 993, 996, and 997, with 998 to come soon.



What I find most humorous is an idea that we'll somehow shape stories to meet some strange conspiracy theory. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> No, we've found the best policy is honesty, and just as we're not scared to offend Porsche, we're not scared to offend 968 owners. Or 964 owners. Had Zach picked the 968, you can bet your last dollar that I would have published his conclusions.



Also, reading between the lines is an intelligent way to consider a text, but the problem is that it's all too easy to bring YOUR biases to the between-the-line reading and come up with the wrong conclusion. See it all the time on t'internet...



The 964 vs. 968 story was run for several reasons:



-It was already in the works long before the $20K shootout (but written and turned in afterwards)

-As a check on my conclusions in the $20K shootout

-To level the playing field

-To consider the continued high prices of many 968s (and what this reflects)

-To consider the continued low prices for many 964s (and what this reflects)



What I took away is that the 911/964 is indeed a more exciting car to drive than the 968, that the gap narrows considerably when you consider all aspects of the cars, but that the 911 still makes a more compelling case, at least for four out of four Porsche experts in our quiver. I'd say two of those writers are a bit more biased than I'd like, but in both cases where the vote mattered, the voice was as open-minded and unbiased as could be hoped for.



We won't shy away from revisiting a car several times if we feel there's more to the story. We came back to the 996 GT3 several times, and we've been interested to revisit the 968 lately because of the considerable enthusiasm surrounding the car and the fact that the newest one is now more than a decade old.



So there's still one more 968 comparison story to come before we're done with our revisit and re-evaluation of the 968 10-12 years later. I find that comparos are highly enlightening, because it's only in the context of the 911 and 986 that I began to see some of the 968s virtues and vices in a clearer light, but more importantly, got a tactile sense for what must have been a major reason why Peter Falk defined "Porsche-ness" the way he did. I lament the 968's passing, but I feel like I understand why the plug was pulled and the car never truly replaced for more than the obvious logistical and financial reasons.



There are some other 968 stories rolling around in my head, as well. Finding the time and space to get them in is another subject entirely, but I'll get it done eventually.



But, hey, how can more 968 coverage be a bad thing? I dig 'em, and I suspect you guys do too! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Cheers!



pete

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[Jacks968]

Well I'll add my two penny's worth. I will state up front I love Excellence for true coverage of a variety of Porsche subjects including 968's and Outlaw 356's and every other imaginable type of Porsche. I think as has been said, Pete Stout (no relation) was as honest and direct with this group as anyone could ask about the last article. If he did not care about what we 968 folk think he need not have replyed to our letters & posts, nore I think would he have done back-to-back articles including the 968.



Having read both articles and noting that I have owned both 964 and now 968 (Cabrio both) I feel he was fair and correct in the appraisal. It is also correct IMHO as 968rz says, that for me (and for all on this site?) the 968 is a "better" Porsche for "us". I would say if I could practically afford to have both of these Porsche cars I would likely own a wide body 964 C4 as the most unique of that line. And I would still have my Cobalt Cab 968 as the most unique of this series. I would use the C4 all winter and the Cab 968 all summer. The 968 is as fine a true Sports Car as I need and really fits the environment I drive in.



Regards, Jack Staudt

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[flash]

pete - i think i may have presented a misconception that i was criticizing the magazine - i was not



ok - i'll admit that my statement that you didn't like 968s was stronger than it should have been - that doesn't change how you decide what to write about - you write about the stuff the readers want - the reality is that's 911 stuff - nothing wrong with that - that's the market - that's what keeps you in business - i'm not faulting that for a second



i think perhaps you are personalizing something, when in reality it is actually a common tale - i wasn't picking on you or the magazine - i merely am not surprised at any things said about the 968



if you go up to any 911 owner and talk to him about the 968, you will get pretty much the same responses - very few of them like the 968 - many will even go so ar as to say "it's not a real porsche" - we have the red-headed step child - they often look at us like we have something hanging out of our nose - that's ok - i've gotten pretty thick skinned about it - i don't go hanging around them much at shows and events



here's an idea for a test that would likely be more balanced:



choose 2 cars that are more evenly matched - the 911 would be a 2WD model with similar interior accessories, etc - if you choose one sport model on one car, do the same on the other - choose cars of similar mileage and condition (i,e, - a 13 year old car with original shocks is not going to fair well against one that is properly maintained)- if one has mods, the other should have similar mods - wheel sizes and such should be similar too



then, grab a bunch of non-911 drivers, or better still, drivers who have never driven porsches before - this would remove the above mentioned "attitude" issues



then let them test the cars and see what they think



i think you'll get different results and impressions - i know the other magazines that reviewed the car when it was new did



at any rate, i still like the magazine, still buy it, and have no ill will toward it or you whatsoever - keep doing what you do - it works and we thank you for it

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[Ed@Excellence]

[quote name='flash' post='32500' date='Mar 15 2007, 08:47 AM']ok - i'll admit that my statement that you didn't like 968s was stronger than it should have been[/quote]





Well, seeing as I *do* like 968s, I'd say the statement was flat wrong, not stronger than it should have been. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />





While many of the comments here are useful, many seem to come from a lack of HAVING READ THE MAGAZINE -- which I would consider to be critical to offering discussion on it, either in part (as in a single article) or in full (as a magazine).



We cover everything, from Porsche-powered VW buses to Porsche-powered blimps to VW A1 Rabbit-bodied 928s (12 were made) to 944 shooting brakes (next issue) to 356 Outlaws to all manner of replicas to all kinds of hot rods to racing to restoration to project cars to every single Porsche model past and present -- and we try to get a balanced mx of everything in every issue. Obviously, you can't get it all in 200+ pages per issue, but we sure try to.



It's getting tougher with the front-engined sports cars, because they're entering into (or just coming out of?) a period where they're old cars, not worth a lot (in most cases), and seem to be losing the strong following they've enjoyed gradually. I just about never see 944s on the road in the Bay Area any more, which really saddens me. There are still plenty of people who love them, but the truth is that I see fewer people doing things with them.



That's not to say that there are not people out there up to stuff worth covering, however. Like the 6.0-liter VarioCam 928 coming together in Texas.



We have ALWAYS been a defender of the "red-headed" stepchilds of the Porsche world. I think I should know, as I've got two of them in my garage... <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/unsure.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



But, hell, don't take my word for it. Check out www.excellence-mag.com and look through the back issues listing. It will give you an understanding of the depth and breadth of Excellence's history of coverage, and I'll put it up against any Porsche periodical of the last 20 years (and there are some good ones out there!).



Finally, Flash, you really do need to read this article. The cars were about as closely matched as you could hope for (equipment, transmissions, 16s, non sport suspension) and tested by a driver I know I can trust for unbiased, meaningful observations. While I like your idea about the "everyman" approach, my experiences with it have been mixed, at best.



pete

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[ether_joe]

[quote name='Ed@Excellence' post='32486' date='Mar 14 2007, 10:49 PM']You guys crack me up. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



First, there's no bias towards 911s here.[/quote]



muuahahahaahaaaa! how many comparos have you had where the 911 did *not* win? <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/cool.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> or maybe I'm just bitter that you didn't choose my car for the 968 article <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



regardless - I think that for a lot of these comparos it's not really important to have a win-lose situation. Different cars for different situations. For example the 964 vs 928 comparison - great article - beautiful cars - and IMO, there can't be a winner there. The cars are too different. Declaring a 'winner' is meaningless as there are different motivations for buying each car.



Really dig your magazine. The GT3 reviews have been great. I especially like also the restoration articles. . . the labor of love. . . that Alabama 356 father-to-son-to-father article a ways back was just priceless. More 356 articles if you ask me. . . I love those little bathtubs. . .



PS how many subscription postcards do I have to send before you guys will start sending me magazines? *sigh* well, off to the bookstore today to buy the latest off the shelf.

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[RPM]

Pete,



Thanks for you time and efforts. You certainly don't have to try and mollify this quirky little corner of the Porsche world - cheers to you for trying.



To quote Winston Churchill,



"A fanatic is someone who will not change their mind and cannot change the subject."



We are all guilty here on Planet968.

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[VGM911]

To the Editor of "Excellence"



Having read the three-car comparison piece (986/911/968) as well as the most recent May article (964/968), I found both stories to be fair appraisals of all five cars. The writers' comments and observations were, for the most part, "spot on" and provided much insight into the capabilities (and shortcomings) of each car driven. In that sense, it matters less to me which car was pronounced the "winner."



The energy in this forum stems from the pride and passion we have for our 968s. Does it sometimes blur or color our objectivity? Yes, for sure, and you'll find similar pride and compassion in the various threads on the Rennlist boards...the 993 owners, the 996 owners, the 986 owners, etc. But in the end, I suppose it's good that Porsche has such loyal and devoted owners of Porsches, in general, and of each model, specifically.



Thanks for connecting with 968forums again and for sharing your thoughts and ideas about how you approached each article. Your interest in talking to 968 owners will not necessarily convince everyone about the validity of the results and conclusions of the tests, but you convince me that you are a "stand-up" guy doing the best you can, and that "Excellence" represents one of the two finest periodicals that I read, the second being "Hemmings Sports and Exotic Car." Thanks, Pete.

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[TheMirror]

Hi Pete -



Thanks very much for chiming in here, we all appreciate your hands-on approach with our community!



I personally love the mag, and have for over a decade. It was one of the top things I looked forward to when I was living in Switzerland in 1993, going down to the newsstand and getting the latest issue. Keep it up, I'll keep my subscription nice and active.



Cheers,

-Mirror







[quote name='Ed@Excellence' post='32486' date='Mar 14 2007, 10:49 PM']But, hey, how can more 968 coverage be a bad thing? I dig 'em, and I suspect you guys do too! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Cheers!



pete[/quote]

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[flash]

pete - i'm not sure how to convey this - it seems like you still think i am slagging the magazine - i assure you i am not - i am clearly coming off to you like i am taking shots at you and the magazine - that is not my intention



i will read the article - i plan to hit the bookstore today to pick up the issue - i do read the magazine, when there is something of interest to me - i buy it when there is



one issue at hand here is that i am not your target demographic - if you wrote about these cars more, or covered local club racing, or tuning and modifications, i would be a subscriber - those are the things i am interested in - i go through the racks, look at the table of contents, and see if there is an article i want - if there is, i buy the magazine - if there isn't, it goes back on the rack - this applies to all magazines too, and not just yours - if i can't find the table of contents, or it is spread across 2 pages not back to back, i never get to it at all - that's me though - i have a short attention span - that is why i don't subscribe to any magazines - i would be really happy if i could just buy specific articles online



let me also say that a further limiting factor for me is that i am not a porsche fan - i don't generally like any of them - i don't even like the 968 in stock trim - for me, it was just a good platform upon which i could build a car i would like - so, i am not looking to see articles touting the car as the best thing since sliced bread



enough about my own weird personal issues



i think "flat wrong" is too far in the other direction - but, ok, then i'll modify by saying that based on what i have read thusfar in 968 articles, the writers have not been historically favorable toward the car, in direct opposition to those from other magazines that reviewed the car, in comparisons to other cars - granted i have not seen any of those compare it to a 911, but they had all driven tested and written about 911s - the results were all generally pretty much the same - most felt at the time that it was the best thing porsche had done - i fail to understand how what was said then could not still hold today



it is also puzzling to me how, with so many guys here who have owned and driven both cars, that not once in any of your reviews that i've read has the 968 come out on top



i'm not suggesting that there is any conspiracy or anything macheavelian, but rather that there may be better ways of having a double blind comparison, and that no matter how unbiased you might think the writers are, that it does not appear that way to many of us



i completely understand why there is lessening coverage of the older front engined stuff, and have no issue with the waning tendency - it's the nature of things - the 911 is the flagship, and has been around for a lot longer, and continues to be the model to talk about - of course it is the bulk of what you do



every magazine has its own focus - you do spread it out a lot and that is to your credit - it is not focused on the areas i am particularly interested in, and again, that is why i don't subscribe



i still like the magazine, think you do a great job on it, and still intend to buy it whenever it has something that peaks my interest, regardless of what i might think of the opinions expressed within it - i went out and bought the last one in spite of already knowing what it said about the car

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[RickP]

regardless - I think that for a lot of these comparos it's not really important to have a win-lose situation. Different cars for different situations. For example the 964 vs 928 comparison - great article - beautiful cars - and IMO, there can't be a winner there. The cars are too different. Declaring a 'winner' is meaningless as there are different motivations for buying each car.

A very true statement.



Rick

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[Harvey]

[quote name='H2Ojazz' post='32410' date='Mar 13 2007, 07:54 PM']While I do subscribe to and read Excellence (and will continue to) I am increasingly convinced that the best Porsche Mag is 911 and Porsche World from the UK. Despite the mag's title there is often 968 and other water-breather content and respect.

.[/quote]



I totally agree. I"m letting my Excellence subscription lapse and picking up another year on teh 911 and Porsche World...in spite of the cost and slow delivery time to the USA.



Harvey

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[SDDave]

[quote name='Ed@Excellence' post='32486' date='Mar 14 2007, 10:49 PM']So I don't think there's much bias, if any, against non-911s at Excellence. What there IS is nothing more than a recognition that more of our readers own and are interested in 911s than any other model.[/quote]

And just how, exactly, would you say that this "recognition' manifests itself? I have to agree with Flash on this one- being a good businessman is not a bad thing. It only becomes a bad thing when you won't own up to it. Saying there is no bias, but that you are merely "recognizing" your largest demographic is like saying that "Tax hikes won't target the rich, but we do 'recognize' that they will be the ones most affected".



[quote name='Ed@Excellence' post='32486' date='Mar 14 2007, 10:49 PM']No, we've found the best policy is honesty, and just as we're not scared to offend Porsche, we're not scared to offend 968 owners. Or 964 owners. Had Zach picked the 968, you can bet your last dollar that I would have published his conclusions.[/quote]

I would have to repeat the question, then: How many times HAS a 968 come out on top of a comparison? It's easy to say you would have no problem doing something that you know you'll never have to do...



[quote name='Ed@Excellence' post='32486' date='Mar 14 2007, 10:49 PM']So there's still one more 968 comparison story to come before we're done with our revisit and re-evaluation of the 968 10-12 years later.[/quote]

I think we will all be waiting with baited breath by the mailbox and magazine racks for the "968 vs Carrera GT" article in the coming months!! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/tongue.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />





Honestly, my beef in all of this has nothing to do with the 968, or the 964, or a comparison, or anything like that. I just like to see people own up to their decisions. If you are going to decide to target your 'recognized' demographic, I will say "Good on you, sir. You are obviously a smart businessman". But when you are told by numerous people that your bias is showing, I think you need to just explain the reason behind the 911-centric concept, and take it from there. If ten women break up with you because they say you're a jerk... you very well may be a jerk. In any event, it's probably not them. And coming off with "You guys crack me up" may not be the right response. You have multiple readers stating publicly that they will not renew their subscriptions to your magazine, and this "cracks you up". Hmmmm





I will say this, though: I don't care that there is a bias. I've owned just about everything in Porsche's arsenal- 914s, 911s, 944, and now a Boxster S and a 968. I'm a Porsche fiend, and I will continue to buy them for the rest of my life. I enjoy magazines like Excellence because they cover Porsches.



All I'm saying is, don't piss in my boots and tell me it's raining. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/dry.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />





Dave

San Diego

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[H2Ojazz]

Wowie-zowie!

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[Beachboy]

Anyone claiming that they don't have a bias is like saying they don't have a brain. And journalist types are the ones most deeply into it and resent being called on it because they like to project the image of being unbiased observers. Beacuse they write it down and spread it around it's up for examination, which is fair, given they get our money for doing it.

I dropped my subscription to excellence because it just didn't appeal to my interests in the car. And the obviously cock-eyed comparisons just add to it. The three car comparison was so far over the top skewed against the 968 that it was laughable. Ed's defense was weak if not funny.

As an engineer, Flash's suggestion is the most valid if you want a real comparison. "Double blind" is the key to any scientific, that means factual, comparison of anything. Generally it means the guys giving theb tests don't know which is which and the people taking it don't either.

As expert as you guys at Excellence are on Proches it's weak to say that you couldn't come up with cars that are at least close to being on equal footing equipment and condition wise. Then it would be a simple matter to have different types of drivers give their take on the cars and list their past car experience to give perspective to the tests.

All that said I think Flash gets down to the meat of the matter that Ed dances around with some nice language. Excellence is in the business of selling advertising and it doesn't pay to dis 911's. And anyone who says that's not a factor is foling themselves to economic reality.

But it's all fun to jabber about.

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[Mark]

I can't beleive everyone gets this worked up over this stuff. I'm not shocked that people would pick a 911,912,964,993,Boxster,etc over a 968 in any comparison test, that was made clear long ago when you look at the sales numbers.



I don't subscribe to Excellence and have only read it once when I was at a shop having a problem looked at so I don't know about their bias. Do you really think they would lose advertising or readers if the 968 beat out a 964? I find that really hard to believe but it would probably generate far more letters to the editor than the other way around. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[Beachboy]

The sales numbers from the nineties show that Porsche priced the car or spent too much to make it, or loaded it up (and loaded it down) with too many luxo-goodies (in my opinion the lower priced club sport would have sold very well here) and priced it too far above the market, a weak market at that. Porsche changed CEO's and totally changed direction at this time from phasing out the 911 to making it the flagship of the line, hence the 968 was dropped.

In any event the magazine publisher doesn't give two hoots about letters to the editor. Mags make their money with ad dollars. So they need advertisers that sell their stuff to the readers with the aid of their ad placements. The 968 after-market is miniscule compared to the 911 after-market hence the bias toward 911 readers. Want the answer? Follow the $.

Why does it bother us. It's just simply dishonest.

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