[Grant]

[This is a repost of a discussion thread I started on another site. It includes a link to an earlier thread there for convenience. I know there's sometimes a little sensitivity about this sort of cross-posting, but I hope it's crystal clear I'm not attempting to hijack any traffic in this case. Please let me know any concerns.]





Going back more than a year now, I've been fairly quietly trying to reach an agreement with the shop that I am convinced killed my engine through their own negligence. You can search the forums or get a bit of a flavor for the saga here:



Click for Off-site Discussion Thread



With all the delays, denials, distortions and outright lies from the shop (Dieter's Motorsports in San Diego), I'm now going public in a major way. I just hope nobody else was hurt by them while I quietly went about seeking satisfaction.



So here is my rudimentary consumer protection website:



Click for My Consumer Protection Website

I recognize there is still a great deal to optimize in terms of both format and content, but I've been dicked around over this for way too long and need to get this info out.



How can you help?



- Visit my site to see what's there and to increase hits so that it gets on and stays on the search engines.



- Cross-post this message in part or whole to any other enthusiast forums you haunt. Be sure to include the URL to my site: again, this helps to get and keep my site on the search engines. (Yes, for sure I'll be doing the same - on Porsche, BMW and Mercedes forums - but more links and postings referencing my URL equals better search rankings.)



- Visit Dieter's site and send them a message through their feedback page, especially if you're in Southern Cal, but even if not: Click for Dieter's Feedback Page The choice of message is up to you, as is the choice of whether to provide your accurate identity and contact info, but please do cite either this message or my website.



- Share with me any other stories you may have about this shop. You can post them here publicly, of course, but I'd appreciate it if you contact me privately through the website email, as well: info@porsche-bmw-service-sandiego.com I won't use anything provided unless/until I have contacted you personally for your permission to do so.



Although a mechanic I trust in another locale had checked out Dieter's for me and confirmed they had a good reputation, the shop was sold by Dieter, himself, several years ago. Through my experience it's crystal clear they've skated on past reputation and that current work - at least not mine - has not yet caught up to them.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[porsche]

Wait a minute.



Are you referring to Dieters located on Market Street in San Diego.



If so, I wouldn't believe for a moment that this facility would not stand behind their work.



My family, friends, co-workers and business affiliates have all had/have their Porsches and BMWs serviced at Dieters (both before and after the change in ownership).



Furthermore, the current owner is an established, very well respected business man that has always stood behind the work performed at his shop.



Porsche

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[porsche]

Grant,



You may want to try Extreme Motorsports. Their tech John is well versed in 968s and has decades of experience.



Before you send your car off to LA, give Extreme a call and talk with John directly.



Extreme's rates are competitive and I doubt you could find a better qualified tech than John (even in LA).



Porsche

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

grant - while i feel your pain (having flushed well over 7 grand the same kind of way, and am danged pissed about it too), i would caution against public statements without consulting an attorney - if these guys are dishonest enough to screw you, they are certainly candidates for filing libel suits



yes, i feel that any shop that would behave like you describe should be put out of business, and you should pursue any legal means you can to nail them, but i'd hate to see you suffer more than you already have at their hands



best of luck

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Grant]

Indeed, Dieter's on Market Street is exactly the shop I'm talking about.



I can only describe my experience with Dieter's and it is indeed as bad as described, if not actually worse. At one time they apparently did have a good reputation, which is why I entrusted my car to them and even gave them the benefit of the doubt when things started going wrong. Repeatedly. Their behavior toward me does not bear out that reputation and I assure you, "porsche," I've far too patiently given them every opportunity to "stand behind their work" for more than a year now.



Please realize, there's a great deal to my consumer protection site that is in my head and not yet designed into the site, including some documentation supporting my assertions. Frankly I think most people will find the detail tedious and my sense of urgency has been to get something published to protect others from my experience. If I hadn't been through this I wouldn't believe it, either, so I understand if some prefer to withhold judgement until more detail is posted.



Flash, appreciate your comments and I have not taken this step casually ... I have not and do not intend to publish anything that is untrue. I've been advised that truth is an "absolute defense" against libel in the U.S. If anyone brings a documented inaccuracy to my attention, I will gladly make appropriate corrections.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[TheMirror]

What was the catastrophic engine failure, and how do you think they caused it? Can you say?



Best,

-Mirror

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[chris]

Ok, so you had a bad experience. Do you honestly think this website will change anything? Do you honestly feel you must push this web site on every porsche forum you can think of?



I'm hoping you realize that 95% of the people you are bombarding do NOT live in San Diego!!

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Grant]

Mirror, when I get the website fleshed out there will be more detail but, in brief (believe it or not!), the balance shaft belt failed, taking out the timing belt. I have not had the engine fully dismantled to tell the total extent of damage, but invested enough to learn:



- There is no identifiable cause of failure, such as a seized or bent roller, water pump, balance shaft, oil residue from leaking seals or anything else in the front engine compartment.



- The belt, itself, was relatively young and had been serviced properly prior to Dieter's.



- There is 100% leak through (I think) exhaust ports on all 4 cylinders, so figure at least that many (probably more) bent valves, possible camshaft and variocam damage, piston damage, etc. Opinions vary on whether this is an engine rebuild or replacement.



- I had asked Dieter's to inspect the balance shaft belt for proper tension and they confirmed to me (verbally) that it was done. It was a little early, but after 7 months in the shop and most every other issue supposedly addressed (turned out they weren't), I really just wanted to keep the car and drive it for awhile, rather than taking it back in another 1-2000 miles or so for just the balance shaft belt check.



- I let Dieter's know - in writing, after they didn't return my calls - the day after I got the car back that there was a vibration problem at idle. In hindsight, this was fully consistent with a balance shaft belt issue. Dieter's made absolutely no attempt to get in touch with me in response. Frankly I just assumed they'd screwed up installing the motor mounts ... which it turns out they did, ALSO.



There is an enormous cloud of peripheral issues and "he-said/she-said" around this, but the bottom line is Dieter's claims never to have opened the front engine compartment or to have received instructions to do so. The written record provides ample reasons that they SHOULD HAVE done so if they were doing their job and not just fabricating bulls*** estimates and charges. And I am 100% sure I did request the balance shaft belt inspection (3 separate conversations, in fact) and that the service manager explicitly confirmed to me that inspection was done.



Hope that will hold you over until the site is more complete.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

grant - cool - just watching your back



absolutely go get them - there are entirely too many shops that won't back up their work, and hide behind excuses - the cost of doing business is that sometimes you have to absorb a job - mistakes happen - sucking it up and eating a job is a part of it - been there, done that



best of luck



chris - all that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing



i took it in the shorts on my car from 2 different shops that both completely blew it - i should have sued them - over 7 grand in the dumper, and i still think about it - but, karma will catch them, and in the meantime, i make sure that people i know don't go there - i had to weigh the loss against the cost in my time to recover it - for me, the aggravation was more stress than i was willing to endure



but again, grant - best of luck

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Grant]

Chris, all valid comments. Since you didn't have a chance to review my subsequent post in response to Mirror, I hope now you see I think of this as something more than a "bad experience?"



As for your other points:



- I haven't yet "bombarded" Porsche forums so far, just the two 968 ones. I hope not to go much farther, but I'd rather irk a few people than see one more person victimized the same way, whether they're Porsche, BMW or Mercedes owners.



- My outbound marketing program is, in fact, targeted to San Diego only, so the vast majority of exposure I'm getting is local.



As for general interest, consider this: We've all at some point had work done on the basis of verbal estimates, authorizations and approvals, I suspect, especially when dealing with a shop that enjoys a good reputation. Clearly the lesson here is "NEVER AGAIN," and I hope someone else gets the benefit of my experience without the pain.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[bibbetson]

Grant, sorry to hear that you had issues at Dieter's. I don't want to pass judgement on the issue as I nor anyone else reading this will ever know all the details. However, I must say that I have had my car not only serviced, but developed there since 2000. I have many personal friends who also have their cars exclusively serviced by them as well.



I for one have been happy with the service that I have received at Dieter's over the years. Sorry your experience hasn't been the same.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Grant]

I'm guessing you worked directly with the techs and didn't have Jim Williams, the service manager, in the middle? I feel he was the main trouble spot in my case and, as I say on my site, Roger (the owner) is in many ways also a victim. I'm sure with Jim gone - and with AAA remediation measures in place because of my case - things are already better.



That still leaves me holding the bag, when the shop was ultimately responsible for Jim's self-admitted lies, lack of attention to detail, lack of follow up, and so on. To me that still speaks volumes about the shop's leadership and the sort of behavior another new customer to the shop might expect.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[sasilverbullet]

You wrote "To me that still speaks volumes about the shop's leadership and the sort of behavior another new customer to the shop might expect"



Well, not always...it is possible for some middle management to be doing something that the boss doesn't know about, seen that happen a lot! But there's always a time for them to be held accountable for their actions, as in your case with Jim Williams no longer working there.



Now if the shop doesn't want to stand behind their work - that's another story...

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Grant]

Yes, for sure the staff can run amok when the boss isn't looking.



In this case I just cannot believe the boss wasn't looking or that he had no clue that his service manager was an accident waiting to happen. The owner's behavior after the fact - when in hindsight his employee's actions appear obviously out of line - tells me the lessons from this chapter have not been learned.



I appreciate your comments, though, and will be sure to explain my reasoning in more detail on the site.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Grant]

Just wanted to bump this back up to invite you all back to review and give feedback on a major site update.



My Webpage

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[PorscheDude]

good luck

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Grant]

Thanks, smokiemon.



I've got a good deal more up on the site and traffic has really started building now.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[gryphon]

I've been in the (non-automobile) service business before. All I can say is that, if I were Deters, I'd settle up with you promptly in exchange for deleting your site. It's foolish of them to allow so much negative publicity among Porsche enthusiasts.



Tom

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Grant]

Thanks for the support, Tom, and I agree with you about how to treat people when you're in a service business. I've been in marketing for 20 years now and was trained to take very seriously the adage that an unhappy customer will tell 10-20 people while a happy one may only tell one or two. (I've given the benefit of the doubt to customers with far weaker cases than mine, and rarely have I regretted it.)



Now with the internet the multiplier for unhappy experiences is potentially much larger, and I'd be remiss if I didn't take the opportunity to put in a plug here: I encourage anyone to repost my comments and URL on any other Porsche, BMW or Mercedes forums they spend time on.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Grant]

Happy New Year Everyone!



For those who've followed this epic grudge-match, Dieter's lawyer finally sent me an intimidating letter last month saying my website was a pack of lies and violated their rights. Pretty generic over-the-top legalese, and I've commissioned and received my share of such letters over 20 years in management.



Anyone wonder why, after stonewalling for so long, they sent this?



My reply - posted on the site now - reaffirms the site is true, but invites them to submit any corrections. (BTW: This invitation has been posted on the site since inception.)



More than a month later, all is silent. I dug up this phrase from Common Law: Qui tacet consentire videtur–"Silence Implies Consent"



I guess they saw my point. Now they just need to make things right for the enthusiast community ever to trust them again.



Or not.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.