[NeedPorscheSpeed]

[quote name='flash' date='May 4 2005, 11:49 AM']another point often forgotten - much like this board,  this country isn't a democracy - it's a republic - we choose people to make decisions for us - ultimately, we then must either accept the decisions of those people, or elect new ones

[right][post="4212"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Good point, Flash. I was reading Plato's "Republic" recently, and one thing that struck me was his take on pure democracy. He felt that pure democracy would tend towards anarchy due to everyone wanting their way. I guess that is one reason his great work is called the "Republic" instead of "Democracy". <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[BruceWard]

Can anyone provide a link to the thread that was moderated?

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[BruceWard]

I have read the original post and this is my condensed version.



1. Mech post a link to a Rennlist group buy for Dynatech strut bar incase anyone wants to participate.



2. Flash posts "nice bar", KLA is a good and cheaper, but I can have a much better carbon fiber bar produced for less.



3. Dynatech posts an objection to Flash who is designing 968 accessories and is editor for a Porsche magazine posting negative comments about Dynatech products on various forums.



4. Sandoval (forum owner?) posts "don't let Bob's comments get you too worked up, the quality and apearence of the strut brace speaks for itself. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this forum. My opinion is your product is an excellent value."



5. Greimann posts "To those vendors, including myself, remember that this is a free public forum, and product criticisms and praise are free to flow, as are your tasteful product promotions and rebuttal to feedback. "



6. Dynatech posts "the Moderators should start looking at flash as a vendor as he has just proven to us all that he is and will be a vendor also but seeing that the mods are his buddies i'm not sure if that will happen or not. I can only imagine what would happen if i got on the forums either 968.net rennlist.com or 968forums.com and started stating that another vendor was ripping you guys off and that you don't need this Product but i'm designing building one that's cheaper and better, but i guess if i did it in a nice way it would be alright."



7. Etnier posts "Coming at this from the outside I see two things of concern which should be addressed, regardless of assurances to the contrary (everyone- please try to open their minds on this):

* Specifics of the arrangement notwithstanding, Flash is apparently setting himself up as the source of a substantial new line of 968 components.

* He also holds a significant editorial position in a Porsche publication.

These are two major reasons why he should be thinking carefully when making any opinion posts on these boards: he's not in the same position relative to manufacturers and potential advertisers as he was a few months ago. I'm not sure that adjustment process has taken place as of yet."



8. Flash posts "as for the dynatech costing the company so much to make - sounds to me like somebody isn't using the right vendors - that bar should not cost more than about 160 bucks to make"



9. Sandoval posts



"Bob,



I disagree with the price you came up with."



10. Greimann posts " I request any further commentary be sent offline. "



11. Greimann posts "It is about respecing the wishes of the Moderator. In administered forums, there is no free speech. There is nothing personal about it. I asked that no more posts be made and, and there were, several times."



I can only assume that between 10 and 11 some posts made my Pitou and Etnier were censored by Greimann.



Was this post moved to "General Forum specific Q&A" so that everyone would understand that it is ok to to criticize vendors as long as you do not criticize Flash?

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Greimann]

This can be boiled down to some basic elements:



Everyone had their say about the issue. Everyone who wanted to take a shot did.



Anchorman and Flash both agreed that the horse was dead.



To mitigate further endless point - counter point debate on a dead subject, I asked that the discussion end - making the mistake of not locking the thread.



Other posts were made contrary to my request. It doesn't matter what the content was. They could have said : "My car is blue" and I would have deleted all responses up to my last post.



The point was the moderators request was ignored, and further steps were taken. I will not allow 14 page threads to develop on an issue like that. Better to nip it in the bud



This thread was moved purely for the fact that it was originally posted in the wrong forum.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Mark]

[quote name='Greimann' date='May 9 2005, 07:51 PM'] 

Everyone had their say about the issue. Everyone who wanted to take a shot did. [/quote]



Well actually not quite true. As there were afew of us who had no opportunity.

The point was the moderators request was ignored, and further steps were taken.

The problem was as you said:

I asked that the discussion end - making the mistake of not locking the thread. 

You have learned that you can't request people not post in an unlocked thread but you can ask that they refrain from personal attacks and maybe a thread can stay open.



As has been pointed out to me I didn't see the deleted postings but up to that point I don't see a problem with the thread.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[SANDOVAL]

Bruce... it was a matter of Dave asked people to settle down and leave the issue alone. I recieved several emails from people asking me to step in right now Dave and Duckman are the only moderators. I think they have done a great job at keeping the peace. Even though it has only been a few times.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[BruceWard]

Dave, I have great respect for you and Jim but why did

Anchorman and Flash both agreed that the horse was dead.

mean that the thread should be closed?



The thread started as an informational post about a group buy that 968forums readers could benefit from, then Flash discouraged readers from buying Dynatech products, then Dynatech objected to Flash's comments, Sandoval questioned Flash's statements, then others began to question if a magazine editor and 968 accessory designer should be publicly criticizing other vendors products. Finally you killed the thread.



A valid discussion was taking place and you decided to end it. Why did you decide to end it?



Should these two questions remain open?



1. Should 968 accessory designers, manufacturers and vendors be allowed to criticize each other on this forum?



2. With the range of 968 accessories that Flash is involved in should he be considered a vendor? If not a vendor does his editor status change in relationship to normal posters?



Personally I feel that it is bad etiquette to criticize other vendors products by stating that it can be done better. If it can be done that is great! But it is wrong to spoil the market for the vendors who have invested in the existing product.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[rustech]

"Vendor"



Webster's; n : someone who promotes or exchanges goods or services for money



Cambridge; n : someone who is selling something



Flash has never sold a product or maintains rights to a product. Flash has never been paid in exchange for his efforts. He designs ideal products for himself, and has the builders make them available to others that are interested. Everyone has the right to critique any product that he helps "design". This is how we better ourselves and our products, by receiving feedback. "Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one". Opinions are weighted accordingly.



Greimann has done an excellent job moderating thus far, and I'm positive he will continue to put forth his best efforts to keep the peace. From what I've witnessed, he has taken feedback graciously. I would have spanked harder.



Bruce, find something better to do. Put that built up energy into 968s where it belongs. Save the drama for the net.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Greimann]

Let me now use the lifeguard analogy:



A good lifeguard will perform a rescue before the swimmer in trouble goes under. It was only a matter of time before the thread was swallowing water, and two users corroborated the prediction.



We will not lay down specific rules for the when, and how of critical statements. This is not about protecting anyone or any business entity. It is about preserving an atmosphere of peace.



Lets focus on cars and the like. If you have further issues, please take them offline.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Pitou]

....but there was no swimmer in trouble.....

If the two users "corroborating" were flash and myself, then there was really no issue to moderate. Flash pmed me his answers anyways and he thought your intervention not appropriate as well.



I thought you had recognized, that you stepped in too steep....?



Anyways, if you are not allowed to say (well mannered) what you think, why say something at all? A discussion forum is a discussion forum, or not?

Moderating the tone of a discussion... yes....moving topics to the right compartment....yes.....shutting down people's opinion...no....



At least this my understanding of an open forum, which is worth to live.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.