[Pitou]

....did I get moderated, censored, muted???



My two line post in another thread was not aggressive, offensive, discriminative, insulting or uneducated....it was merely affirmative to somebody elses post (which is still there)



Ok, I'm European....but what is it with the country of freedom and free speech?



I do feel discriminated, insulted by this censoring....

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[Greimann]

Nothing personal at all, and there was nothing in your content that was inappropriate



It is about respecting the wishes of the moderator and administrator. I asked that no more posts be made and left it up to the honor system to respect that. Several posts were made - they were deleted and topic closed.

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[Mark]

Personally don't think the thread should have been locked but I guess that is your perogative as moderator.

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[Greimann]

In moderatred and administered forums there is no free speech. Lots of latitude is granted of course, but if the tone of a thread is deemed to be inflamatory then measured steps will be taken.



Locking threads and deleting posts are some of the last options, after a kind request is made first.



There is nothing personal. It is about maintaining an atmosphere that the administrator wishes to maintain, and respecting the authority of the persons charged to carry it out.

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[Mark]

I didn't think the topic had degenerated to anything bad and was actually a good discussion. If you continue to kill off topics where people disagree with one another than this forum won't live up to it's promising start. Moderating a web forum is generally a thankless job and I wish you luck with it.



I'm guessing this quote from that thread really doesn't hold true. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/cool.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



[quote name='SANDOVAL' date='Apr 30 2005, 02:50 AM']Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this forum. [right][post="3989"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

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[SANDOVAL]

Mark in the past four months there has only been a few occasions when moderators stepped in. I think that is fantastic! I received 8 emails on the topic and some posts were asked to be deleted or edited. Sometimes you just need a moderator to step in and stop a thread from getting worse. You did not see all of the posts so you can not pass judgment. I stand behind Dave's decision.

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[Greimann]

Opinions are very welcome and 99% of the time are not moderated.



It is when the thread becomes a long string of the same point - counter point conversation that it becomes tiresome, or the content is inflamatory, insensitive or disrespectful. Some content that you didn't see was removed.

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[Pitou]

[quote name='Greimann' date='May 3 2005, 03:14 PM']In moderatred and administered forums there is no free speech....

[right][post="4131"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]





Are you serious ????? May I suggest, that you look up the definition of moderator and administrator?





[quote name='Greimann' date='May 3 2005, 03:14 PM']Lots of latitude is granted of course, but if the tone of a thread is  deemed to be inflamatory then measured steps will be taken.[/quote]



Like you said yourself....that was not the case





[quote name='Greimann' date='May 3 2005, 03:14 PM']It is about maintaining an atmosphere that the administrator wishes to maintain, and respecting the authority of the persons charged to carry it out.[/quote]





....so I guess it is about that? A power gimmick?





[quote name='Greimann' date='May 3 2005, 03:14 PM']There is nothing personal.[/quote]



I believe you in the first place....

But I personally take it personal, if my free speech is censored, muted.......unless my language has been insulting, discriminating, unappropriated, flaming, etc........which it hasn't been.



And it has never been in many other posts in many other forums....





Sorry for my free western european spirits.....

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[Greimann]

You are taking this way too personally. Your content was not the issue at all.



It merely triggered a series of additional posts from other members that threw the thread into turmoil again. They, including yours was deleted up to my last post.



This is not about a power trip all all. Far from it. Intervening sucks. But I was aksed to help out and I agreed to do it.

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[Etnier]

Pitou, please don't personalize or nationalize this. There's a pretty clear choice now between the unmoderated 968.net forum and the moderated one here. We've all seen the unpleasantness which at times overtakes the other forum and that's why we welcomed this new site. You won't agree with every decision a moderator makes but, given that you're knowingly posting in a moderated forum there's really only so far that it's appropriate to take issue with a mod's decision. Is this really something you want to go to the wall about?



This forum is brand-new. Not everything is going to work perfectly the first time out, or to everyone's liking. But I think everyone trusts the mods here, and wishes the best for 968forums' success.

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[flash]

this entire incident has me bothered a bit as well - it was a bit of a surprise to me



i agree with the concept of moderation and the ability of moderators to step in to keep the peace - this particular decision though, i think was unneccesary or at least not carried out well - in retrospect the thread probably should have been locked rather than edited - the perpetuation of posts was only going to lead to more problems



i was the only one who could possibly have felt offended by anything eitner or pitou said, and i didn't - therefore, nothing was inflammatory - i would have been amongst the first to know if i had been offended



i stand behind dave's decision, and eric's intentions, but i hope they can both now see that stepping in part way is not effective, and only leads to bigger problems - the horse was out of the barn - now we have multiple threads on the same topic, as well as external conversations going on - we have people who are offended that we did not before - much ado about nothing



this could have been handled better by talking to eric first (maybe that happened, i don't know), then shutting down the thread with a statement saying that they thought this was getting out of hand, yada yada - i think that decision would have been more easily accepted and respected



additionally, i think the entire thread should probably then be deleted with a similar statement so as not to allow the possibility of further perpetuation of bad feelings

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[Mark]

OK I understand that I didn't see all of the posts but the thread should not be deleted.

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[flash]

stepping outside the box for a minute, what i was thinking was that it would be better for readers not to see a mere part of a conversation, and not have the entire story, and that particular exchange really served no useful purpose, and only incited people, so deleting it seemed logical to me in the interests of keeping the peace and not proliferating any ill feelings



maybe just leaving the initial post that had the link to the rennlist thread, and deleting the rest, would be the best answer - then anybody who went to the thread would not witness the other stuff, and not form any opinions about anybody or anything that was said in that exchange, especially since they would not be aware of the other exchanges that have happened outside that thread since then

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[Greimann]

Ok, just got back from a seminar on unruly crowd control. It was sponsored by the LAPD They gave away some nifty flashlights too! So beware, I have some new people skills! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />





Being a moderator is a lot like being a good gardener. You want the tree to grow and fill out so it has a pleasing shape and is nice to sit under. If a branch starts growing in a direction that you don't like, prune it, slap some tar on the wound and fertilize the rest so it stays healthy.



So no more pruning for now, just fertilizing.

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[flash]

lol - does that mean we can now expect to be fed a bunch of sh**?



somtimes the tree is blocking the view of what you want to see and should just be cut down

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[Pitou]

[quote name='Etnier' date='May 3 2005, 04:47 PM']Pitou, please don't personalize or nationalize this.....Is this really something you want to go to the wall about?[/quote]



To John Etnier,



I don't want to personalize or nationalize this....I want to mondialize it.

Withholding and censoring information and opinions is very much used in politics, using the available public media.

This shouldn't have a place in a democratic society.



And you know very well, that this is happening a lot in your country, in my country and in (too) many places in the world. That's why I'm ready to go to the wall about it....always...

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[Pitou]

[quote name='Greimann' date='May 3 2005, 10:02 PM']So no more pruning for now, just fertilizing.[/quote]



To Dave Greimann, moderator



From your last post I read, that you will change your approach to moderating. I appreciate that.



An interesting forum is for sure a free speech and free opinion forum. Let the tree grow the way it grows, cutting away the bad parts (flaming, insults, aggressions, etc.)



Good luck with it and for me the case is closed.

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[flash]

this is a tough call, and the moderators have a very difficult job - they have to make a decision of when to step in and stop a fight - it's a very philisophical question - it's the same as asking "do i let these guys shooting at each other continue to do so and kill each other, or do i step in and stop it?" - our government sure can;t figure that one out - i don;t really think it's any easier for the moderators



the community is only lessoned by flaming, aggressions and such - in a perfect world none of that would exist - is then wrong to try to change something or stop something in order to try to make it more perfect? in a perfect world people would read things objectively and without emotion or personal involvement or perspective - unfortunately, especially in this venue, people tend to read things from their own perspective, and not the author's - this i blame on television, our public school system, and our failure to teach people to read literature from the author's perspective - but i digress....



i support the efforts of the moderators and only hope they can step back a little and then objectively decide what is and is not a problem, and then deal with it completely - the halfway step has led to these exchanges, which, while also enjoyable, certainly has gotten some people riled up - perhaps intervention should have been earlier - perhaps the entire deletion is in the best interests of the community and particularly those who may come here and read that first and think "what kind of nonsense is this?" and then leave as a result, thereby weakening us as a whole - we paint over graffity - we insist that "objectionable" material be placed away from innocent eyes - should we not do some form of the same kind of thing here?



i'm not sure what the best solution is, and i'm sure eric will give it a lot of thought

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[WYLDCTZ]

Just reading this thread for the first time. From my quick view, looks like everyone agrees in moderating the threads, but nobody wants their posts moderated <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Rock on Dave. if you ever delete any of my posts, I won't notice nor care, thus I won't complain. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Also, just to clarify since a lot of people like to make this argument: Censorship is not inherently 'anti-democratic'. I'm sure everyone can think of many instances where free speech is correctly limited.

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[flash]

another point often forgotten - much like this board, this country isn't a democracy - it's a republic - we choose people to make decisions for us - ultimately, we then must either accept the decisions of those people, or elect new ones

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