[SANDOVAL]

Skip I am sooooo glad you found us! You're a great guy to have participating on this board!

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[skip]

Thanks, Eric. Always nice to find another corner of the web to hang out. Welp, back to Denny's... <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

lots of stuff to think about



250 front and 175 rear is a big differential - the car understeers stock, let alone with the nearly 40% increase in front rate the 250 would give - the car i drove was a mess - even with a fresh alignment, the car pushed badly - couldn't get out of the car soon enough - i made some adjustments on the shocks and struts, and it got better, but there just wasn't enough to get anywhere near right - was very nice and stiff though in the front



even with the H&R, there is just a touch of understeer at the limits, and it only loads to 230



the 200 works well as is, but is definitely the limit with stock rear torsion bars if you want to maintain balance - i suppose adding a stiffer rear bar could help, but the additional power oversteer could be scarey - have to try that out and see - eric???



now if you want to add a coilover shock in the rear..............



like the man said, ah, choices

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[mech]

Hi guys, thanks for joining the thread



Can you run the koni rear coilovers without the torsion bar if you use a 500lb rated springs?



Why did porsche use a torsion bar and helper spings in the first place, does the torsion bar help with left to right rigidity or have some additional benefits?

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[flash]

just a note on that idea - any rear coilover you use as a stand alone (torsion bars deleted) must have solid bushings (spherical bearings) and the adaptor at the bottom (racer's edge makes a good one) - standard rubber mounts are not sufficient - you must also use the delrin torsion tube bushings, because again, the rubber ones are not sufficient - a lot of work, but i like it



500# is a BIG spring - i am currently running 250# in the rear - i tried stiffer ones, up to 300#, and just got bounced, and had a lot of oversteer, regardless of shock or swaybar setting - this is with the springs i have up front - if i had gone stiffer in the front too, then i could have gone stiffer in the rear - the current ride is a good firm but compliant street ride though, and i wasn't looking for a track ride, or anything near as stiff as the hopped up MGB i was running



porsche used torsion bars because they used carryover parts from the beetle (seriously) - they have the same effect as coils, do a good job of springing the car without the mass being on the perimeter of the car, are somewhat adjustable for height, and are inexpensive - they are a pain to work with though

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[mech]

[quote name='flash' date='Apr 8 2005, 11:22 AM']just a note on that idea - any rear coilover you use as a stand alone (torsion bars deleted) must have solid bushings (spherical bearings) and the adaptor at the bottom (racer's edge makes a good one) - standard rubber mounts are not sufficient - you must also use the delrin torsion tube bushings, because again, the rubber ones are not sufficient - a lot of work, but i like it[/quote]



Flash, you rock.. Thanks for the info, Moton didnt mention that there was so much involved with the deletion of the torsion bar. What is the adaptor at the bottom, what does it do?

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[flash]

happy to help - working this out was a bear, but i'm glad i did it



it screws into the banana arm and adapts the 14mm thread to 1/2" so you can use a spherical bearing in the bottom of the shock - failure to use them results in either snapping the shock bolt, or worse, cracking your banana arm (which is $1000!)



i'll try to snap a shot and post it - i thought i already did, but now can't find it

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[skip]

Here's the RE adapter Flash is referring to:

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[mech]

I inspected my control arm castor blocks again and they are going out fast. There is a lot of play in the suspension at turn-in which feels weird. I think im going to go with the bearing based castor blocks and uprgraded rubber bushings. Are there any differences between racers edge or elephant racing products?



Whats a approximate install time for the control arms?



I'm still wondering what to do for the struts, the Leda coilovers are tempting me. The price is fair, but there is little chance I will get to drive in a car with this setup prior to purchase. They are reccomending 350 lb/in springs front and rear. What adifficult choice, my #2 choice is new konis all around with the ride height kit on the front... its a tough call, but a fun one...

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[GREYGHOST]

I'M the Koni are better for the 968 for the street or for auto-x, I ran a Boxster S

and we tried the Moton's on them with no luck they felt good <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/dry.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> but they did

not make it faster on the auto-x.



As to oversteer or understeer, I would say that most of it is driver induced habit,

I am a Instructor for the Evolution Performance Driving School, we teach

people how to drive their car in a auto-x. I teach about 100 plus students a

year, though evaluations we here how alot of students learn not to induce

these habits though driving better. Part of the curriculum is that we drive them

in their car for few laps. theis lets them see how a unrulely car can be corrected

though the driver. We don't incourage them to change there car through the day.





a car with slight oversteer is faster than one that understeer, at the limit <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> but

that is for controlled enviroments. I have found most strret set up cars have a

underster built into them. i.e. thanks ralph nader.



thanks Rob Falkner

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[mech]

hey rob,



I would love to come up and take a class, does evolution have a website with contact info. Ralph isnt so bad, at least he trys...





Thanks,

Vinay

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[GREYGHOST]

Try this link we teach all over the US. and do a couple in Canada.



http://autocross.com/evolution/



thanks rob

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[Jim Child]

[quote name='mech' date='Apr 18 2005, 05:07 PM']I'm still wondering what to do for the struts, the Leda coilovers are tempting me.  The price is fair, but there is little chance I will get to drive in a car with this setup prior to purchase.  They are reccomending 350 lb/in springs front and rear. What adifficult choice, my #2 choice is new konis all around with the ride height kit on the front... its a tough call, but a fun one...

[right][post="3403"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



I have Ledas on my race car and like them a lot. I know several other club racers who are also successfully running them. For track use its hard to beat their bang for the buck. However, I think Ledas and Motons are overkill unless you're planning to track the car a lot. I also think 350 lb springs is the absloue max you would want to run on a street car, and probably too much for most people.

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[flash]

i can't imagine running that stiff a spring on the street (check your dental plan) maybe it's because of the weight removed, making mine feel stiffer, but wow - that's huge

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