[flash]

lol - it they linked voting to the porn sites, we'd probably get a better response

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[lbpesq]

One "big change" that has had a lasting effect, though far from positive, is the "war on drugs". The Controlled Substances Act of 1970, in conjunction with the "sentencing reform" of 1986-88, which brought us the "Sentencing Guidelines" and "Mandatory Minimum Sentencing" have had a huge effect on this nation of which most people are unaware because the change has been like the frog in cold water that is slowing brought to boil. It has created a huge prison-industrial complex in which our nation, with 5% of the world's population, now has 25% of the world's prison population. We are firmly ensconced as number one in the world in percentage of population under control of the criminal justice system, and we left number two in our dust long ago. As a result of the "war on drugs" roughly 65-75% of people in jail and prison are there for drug or drug-related crimes. Individual liberties and privacy rights have been steadily chipped away by the gov't as a casualty of this "war". Our courts are clogged way beyond capacity with "drug" cases. In many urban areas, as a result of all the drug cases, (which, as criminal cases must take precedence over civil cases), a civil case must often wait at least two years to ever see the inside of a courtroom. And by leaving the drug industry in the hands of criminals, smugglers, and other black market denizens, rather than controlling, regulating and taxing, we are spending in excess of $40 billion a year on a system that is almost universally perceived as a failure. There are no less drugs available now than when we started this "war" over 40 years ago. The only difference of opinions seems to be whether to ramp it up even more, or try a completely different approach (like decriminalization, regulation, taxation).



O.K. now I'll get off my soapbox and go hop in my 968. Much more fun!



Bill

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[rhudeboye]

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1320418597' post='117551']

lol - it they linked voting to the porn sites, we'd probably get a better response

[/quote]



LOL. or not. I'm not entering that booth behind a previous "voter".

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[ds968]

" LOL. or not. I'm not entering that booth behind a previous "voter". "



I'm VOTING this reply as the funniest one of 2011.

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[Rap]

Good lord drugs again! I think online voting is a bad idea. No country or company seems to be hack proof. With all the attacks from state security services ths potential for meddling outweighs the benefit. Tax credits might make sense to an erudite bunch like us, but it doesn't resonate or mean much to,dare I say, a large section of our populace. It was with a wee bit of sarcasm ,for those that don't know me, that I mentioned votes for turkeys. However, we give our employees turkeys for thanksgiving to make sure everyone can have a turkey dinner. Paternalistic yes but it was born out of a time that as a non profit the wage we paid employees was low. We give a xmass bonus so everyone will have some sort of decent xmass. They appreciate both. They also now expect both. It loses it's meaning over a period of time just as I suspect some form of vote buying or influencing would. So the motivation to vote would likely spike and then diminish. Years ago my grandfather ran the republican party in this area. There was always a well directed effort to convince people to vote. Baskets of food, rides to the voting booth and favors. As a young and idealistic knucklehead I was agast when I heard this. When he died we had a grueling three day wake where people came out of the woodwork to pay their respects. Most of the people were familiar to my Dad as people who had been helped over and during the year and at election time. We have moved beyond were people feel connected across their communities.How well do you know or interact with your neighbors? Until people realize the privilege and need to vote to bring about change the participation will continue to decrease or stay low. How is that accomplished? I don't think incentives do it. Certainly not over the long run, turkey example. Mandatory nope. Outright need or another great snake oil orator perhaps. Neither way sets well. I now am falling off my soap box.

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='rhudeboye' timestamp='1320411591' post='117540']

kinda on topic. No wrong answers here, just opinions.



What was the last big change made by government that had lasting benefits to the Nation or for humanity as a whole?

[/quote]



I'm the farthest thing from a big-government guy, but it's hard to argue with the benefits that have come from government regulations in the area of health, safety, and (although this has run seriously amock at times) the environment. And I'd put gas mileage standards in this category as well. Without government involvement here, cars would still be getting an average of 15 mpg, despite today's relatively high gas prices, because Americans just like big cars. The requirement to achieve dramatically improved gas mileage is going to foster some amazing innovation from the automakers in the next few years. Although I completely agree with your implication that government also very frequently creates laws and regulations that are counter-productive, and which have horrendous unintended consqeunces. It's all about finding the right balance.

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[Rap]

Ah yes but who is in charge of determining that balance. Today because an inability to pass legislation we have unelected career bureaucrats determining policy. Or we have executive orders that bypass the healthy function of a Legislature. The immigration and reform act in the mid80's brought a lot of illegal aliens into our fold. Good for them, social security and good for business.

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[rxter]

Turkeys for votes is better than voting for turkeys.



I'll be here all week - don't forget to tip the waiters...

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='Rap' timestamp='1320451399' post='117588']

Ah yes but who is in charge of determining that balance. Today because an inability to pass legislation we have unelected career bureaucrats determining policy. Or we have executive orders that bypass the healthy function of a Legislature. The immigration and reform act in the mid80's brought a lot of illegal aliens into our fold. Good for them, social security and good for business.

[/quote]



Agreed. I see the the role of government as setting the "foul lines," inside which in a ideal world a free market system should be, well, free to operate. No foul lines, and you have the potential for abuse, greed run amock, and anarchy. Make the foul lines too stringent, and you have stagnation and stifled growth. But yes, finding the balance is the tricky part.

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[smshirk]

It is every single citizens responsibility to vote. It is far more serious than a right of citizenship or your right to complain if you don't vote. You are letting down your fellow Americans, not only if you fail to vote, but if you fail to take the time and energy to make informed decisions. We are at the precipice of making sweeping changes in our society that will affect us for generations to come. If there is no one on the ballot that you can support, it is your right to write in a candidate and a very simple thing to to do. Write in yourself, your wife, or someone else you know. We need the whole village in local, state and national elections. The civil issues we have now are because we have such a small percentage of people who actually take the time and energy to vote intelligently. We have allowed professional politicians to rule every facet of our society for more than 50 years. Really since the turn of the 20th century and now we have this class warfare mentality across the nation. A majority of young people have no clue what the difference in capitalism and socialism actually means or the history that goes along with the two opposing views. it saddens and angers me all at the same time to think of all the men who have died for this country, only to give it away to the rest of the world, and make no mistake that could very well happen if people don't wake up, think for themselves, and take action. If a majority wants to give our wealth away to the third world, then so be it, but at least know the consequences and take part in the process before it is too late!

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[968Syncro]

[quote name='smshirk' timestamp='1320521908' post='117606']

We are at the precipice of making sweeping changes in our society that will affect us for generations to come.

[/quote]

And just what are these changes? ... Can anyone answer just what these imminent or needed changes are? ... Nobody seems to know what changes are needed. Or more likely, the needed changes are taboo, we have our head in the sand, too fearful to acknowledge our true condition. That is why we just drift along in the same old ways.



The traditionalists long for the good old days and can't come to grips with how a country must evolve in a changing environment (e.g. the undeniable globalized environment of today).



The progressives spend more time complaining about what is wrong, and have little to offer when considering tangible changes with realizable results.



And that is why we just drift along in the same old ways. The constitution was designed to evolve, yet those responsible in Washington do nothing but posture and bicker. No wonder people don't feel that strong responsibility to vote. Note that there are in fact a number of countries that have the ability to change and evolve (e.g. Germany and China's investment in renewable energy). The core problem is that as a population we no longer know what the US stands for, what are our unifying goals (not Principles! ... Goals with a plan!)? We have none, and therefore we have no basis for making decisions. And we run the risk of becoming balkanized into groups, most likely around economic class, maybe around national origin, probably not around geography or ideology. The US has already become much more a place where every man is for himself, much less caring for the country as a whole or one's fellow man (the single exception being the 968forums); no wonder voting is seen with less importance than originally intended. We are quite fractured and discouraged, just watch, prime territory for some charismatic leader (dictator) to surface.

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[Rap]

What are these changes? That's not difficult. We have an aging society that is living longer. Some of it due to taking better care of oneself and much of it is modern medicine. Yet we run based on old concepts. Social security starts at 65. Yet we may live to 85. When the actuarial figures where developed people didn't have the same chance to live as long. Where 3 or 4 people used to pay into the system for every one person, now I believe it is 2-1. This is not sustaining. We don't have enough people working. Forget about the unemployed for a moment. Not enough people are putting into social security. Now bring the unemployed back into the equation. Whatever the true number of unemployed, not the number the Feds report, these people aren't putting in money. I have never seen this fact when I read about this issue. Oh have I forgotten about that mystical trust fund IOU that all of thes monies reside in. This is a real debt that is an off budget sheet item. It's not included in the debt numbers bandied about. Our social security withholdings go directly into the general fund. This obligation will eventually have to be borrowed to pay social security obligations. If people undrstood this scam govts would fall. Or how about unfounded or underfunded pension obligations. What person really thought that not fully funding a pension obligation was a great idea? Or better yet, who in their right mind believes that these pensions should be allowed to use a rate of return such as 8or 9 percent? This is but the tip of the iceberg that the US titanic is steaming to at full speed while the orchestra plays and the champagne flows. There are no lifeboats, no vests and the skipper and the crew are passed out in their corrupt Washington stateroom. There are lots of issues that need to be addressed by an active, vocal and engaged populace. Again I marvel that the lessons learned in the 60's and early 70's have so easily been forgotten! And I am not talking about sitins and violent demonstration.

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[tamathumper]

The 60's are an eye-blink away,... These issues have been contemporary for thousands of years, and they both underlie and transcend politics. I'm at once curious about when, if ever, we as a species will overcome these base wranglings, and saddened that we continue to fail to learn from our own repeated foolishness.



Einstein observed something along the lines of "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

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[968Syncro]

Hi Rap, I agree, yes you are absolutely correct, huge pending problem. I interpreted the question "precipice of making sweeping changes ", as "what changes are we making", not what changes are going to happen to us. I don't see us making any significant changes, but if we don't, the changes that are affecting us are overwhelming. Here are some more current problems:

- we value entertainment more than education.

- we admire more what someone has, than what someone does.

- the concept of "jobs" is obsolete, a quaint leftover from the industrial revolution.

- we specifically decided to give away our businesses/economy to other countries (outsourcing), this is nuts, what did people expect.

- government workers have higher compensation than the average private sector worker.

- and as Bill wrote, government waste and harm, for example the war on drugs.

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[Rap]

Govt waste is an oxymoron. Always existed always will. The outsourcing issue although I agree on a base level is more a function of societies moving along the developmental scale. Emerging markets will always offer cheaper labor. China has already passed that point. Now stealing and reverse engineering is their growth engine. Entertainment is our largest export. Read that somewhere. Hard to believe. Jobs aren't obsolete but rather our definition and understanding of what makes up a job change as companies requirements change. Tama I don't think we will overcome these wranglings. I think they might be each generations learning curve. I suspect that the apex of govt workers benefits may have passed. My only fear is that health care is a huge workforce just ripe to be unionized. This is obamacare and his socialistic policy at its worst. The inability of local, state and federal govt to pay their benefit obligations should reign this in. We had a long discussion on the war on drugs previously. I remember we all agreed with what everyone said! Lol

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[tamathumper]

These are not generational lessons. These same issues have played to their terminus in all civilizations that came before, and they generally take hundreds of years. But they are inexorable, and they always come to the same conclusion.



In the past few centuries, we've given them new names, but they are the same fundamental flaws of humanity.

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[968Syncro]

[quote name='tamathumper' timestamp='1320543257' post='117625']

These are not generational lessons. These same issues have played to their terminus in all civilizations that came before, and they generally take hundreds of years. But they are inexorable, and they always come to the same conclusion.



In the past few centuries, we've given them new names, but they are the same fundamental flaws of humanity.

[/quote]

Good point. We will follow this idea --- Let's all agree that humanity cannot be improved, we should give up! Let us accept that the problems of the past should always be with us in the future. It is way to hard to change, hey -- my gas tank is full, let's go for a drive and get some ice cream. It has always been this way, we will just live with what is wrong.



I suggest reading Steven Pinker, "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined " (things do improve!)



I won't give up, I think I will continue to vote.

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[Rap]

Tama the issues may be the same or similar but mankinds lot has improved over centuries. We don't reach perfection but we don't live in caves, well hmm I will let that comment go, most people have some food, disease is not as rampant and there is shelter for most, at least in this country. They say our kids won't have it as well as we do but that negative history has not been written yet.

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[tamathumper]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for continued progress and success, but statistically speaking every age and every civilization has its peak, and this one is (again, statistically) past.



I just roll my eyes whenever someone says "Times are harder than they've ever been", or "The pace of life is the fastest it's ever been", or,... well you get the point. People generally think that times are toughest now, and challenges are at their worst now, and that they'll only get worse in the future. And my sense is that you could read stories from ancient Roman times, or Egyptian, or Babylonian, that speak of the same issues we have today - a perception of an increasingly frenetic pace, problems in society with suicide, drugs, militaries, etc.



I guess what I'm saying is, it's all pretty relative and it hasn't changed much if at all since the beginning of recorded history. Is that cause for "giving up"? Nope, it's cause for just being happy and getting on with it.

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[Rap]

I agree with what you have said. I do however think that current longevity and health is perhaps something not dealt with in past civilizations. Shorter mortality rates culled the herd so to speak which precluded these types of problems. And with the supposed advent of global warming, hey let's face it, there just aren't enough ice flows to put Mom and Dad on when they become a burden. Dear Lord please don't smite me down for that comment!

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