[Cloud9...68]

I think my question is pretty simple, but please bear with me while I provide a bit of background:



I cut my DE teeth on a wide (40') 3.1 mile track with mostly pretty gentle (as opposed to very tight) turns, in the Forth Worth, TX area. By my fifth event, I had started really picking up my speed, passing cars much faster than me on occasion, and getting the priveledge to go solo on my last run.



Then, a few months later, I did a one-day event at a new track very close to my home (woo-hoo!!). The section that was opened at the time included several turns that are much tighter than any I had experienced at the other track, plus the track was several feet narrower, and I found myself having a great deal of difficulty getting the wheel unwound by the time I made it to track-out. I was pinching and scrubbing off a lot of speed, in other words.



Toward the end of the day, the track owner, a retired racer of 30 years named Bill Dollohite, drove my car, and I noticed not only how unbelievably smooth he was, but how effectively he was using throttle steer, particularly in the tighter turns. He would let off the gas just a touch somewhere between turn-in and apex, and the car simply glided to the apex, almost effortlessly. It dawned on me that, besides just feeling cool, this was allowing him to not have to crank the wheel nearly as far as I was to get to the apex, so he had no trouble unwinding the wheel by track-out.



So, I've convinced myself that it would really behoove me to learn how to throttle steer before my next track day, which is on April 12, at yet another(!) new track about 21 miles from my house (I think I've died and gone to heaven...). This track doesn't look quite as tight as the one I just described, but it's only 36' wide.



Am I thinking about this correctly? To be honest, even at the Ft. Worth track, one of the most challenging things for me to learn was to completley unwind the wheel before track-out, so this has always been a weakness of mine, as I'm sure it is for many beginners. But is throttle steer the best way to improve this part of my technique, or is it a more advanced technique than I should be taking on at this early stage in my high performance driving career? If so, is there a better way to help with this steering wheel unwinding business?



I was thinking of going to an empty parking lot on a Sunday night and practicing driving around in circles near the limit of adhesion, and gently lifting off the throttle to experience the oversteer this should produce in a non-threatening environment. Does this sound like a good idea? If you guys think adding throttle steer to my repertoire is the way to go, do you have any tips as to how to incorporate it into my cornering technique? One thing that's really improved my speed is to get on the gas very quickly after turn-in, so I don't want to lose too much of this precious momentum for the sake of getting the car rotated toward the apex via the throttle, so obviously I need to find the right balance of assertive throttle application, and car rotation.



Sorry about this post getting longer than I had intended (not really a new thing for me), but I really value you guys' opinion, and I hope your answers to my questions will help others as well. Thanks.

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[RS Barn]

Cloud,

You are very close to understanding these cars.

I like to set them up to have virtually zero understeer and only throttle lift oversteer. Sound familiar.

The other point you made was getting on the throttle very early. This is the key to fast lap times. I like to brake hard early (with clear track) and get back on the gas early to settle car and have exit speed. I have several other handing tips.

Even though I don't race, I have had several students win their first PCA race.

Pete

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[Cloud9...68]

Pete,



Yes, I felt a huge improvement in speed once I learned it was OK to get right on the throttle after turn-in. There's nothing quite like the feeling of seeing a much faster car appear in my rear view mirror, like a Cayman or an Elise, at the end of a straight, and have them disappear from my mirror by the time the turn or set of turns is complete. Especially after enduring several weekends of being passed by Mini Coopers, VW Golfs, E36 BMW sedans, etc.



The previous owner of my car must have done a great job of setting mine up, because it behaved, at least in Bill Dollahite's hands, exactly as you describe. He was EXTREMELY complimentary about my car, and this was after having driven a million dollar Ferrari Enzo maybe a half hour earlier! I'm hoping at least part of this was due to the lower suspension brace and turbo cup brake proportioning valve I bought from you last summer. Now I just need to learn to make it dance the way Bill did...



Andy N

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[333pg333]

I think most of us throttle steer without thinking about it. Imagine that you push too hard/deep into a corner and are understeering across the track. You don't grab the wheel and yank it over harder, you back off the gas therefore allowing the nose to tuck in and away you go. It sounds like the old pro was doing some of that and some trail braking and as you suggest with his innate smoothness was able to carry the maximum corner speed with the minimum fuss. You can turn soft corners without turning the wheel (not hairpins etc) just by modulating the accelerator.

Easy enough to practice just like left foot braking.

You guys are so lucky with all the tracks you have. I wonder how many you have in the US? Hundreds by the sounds of it. Damn!

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[Jim Child]

Throttle steering isn't really rocket science, so I'd say you're definitely ready to start experimenting with it. Probably what you're seeing is the car understeering with early throttle application in tight carousel or hairpin type turns. In these situations a little breathe of the throttle is often all it takes to transfer weight forward giving the front tires enough grip to point the car toward the apex. Once that is accomplished you can get right back into the throttle. You might be apprehensive about trying this if you've been talking to 911 guys. Their cars are MUCH more sensitive to this technique and they can easily wind up pointing backwards if they're not careful. Your car is much more user friendly with this technique, so you shouldn't worry. Just try to be smooth and easy with your throttle inputs, and make your throttle breathe as small as possible, just enough to get the car pointed where you want.



With regard to unwinding the wheel try doing this. Keep your eyes up, and look over and through the apex so you can see the exit curbing. With your eyes on the exit curbing you will naturally drive right to it, unwinding the wheel as you go without even thinking about it.

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[bob blackwell]

Great advice as always Jim, look where you want to go and you will go there. Enjoy the learning experience! Good luck, Bob Blackwell.

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[ether_joe]

very interesting thread guys. I can eat this stuff up.

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[Cloud9...68]

Thanks for the inputs, everyone. As I said, I hope this thread is proving helpful to others besides myself.



Jim, you're probably right about my early throttle application causing the car to understeer, and I'm probably trying to overcome it by feeding in way too much lock, making it impossible to completely unwind the wheel in tight turns. I'm glad you think throttle steering is something that I should pursue, because after experiencing a pro apply it in my own car, it really opened my eyes how important it is to get to the apex without having to rely completely on steering lock to get me there.



Is there a general rule of thumb as to when and how much to throttle steer, depending on the nature of the turn? Let me try to answer my own question. The bottom line is to try to keep the tires' slip angles at the optimal (for a road tire, which is what I'm running) 8-15 degrees. In a wide, high speed turn, the speed itself can provide enough cornering force (albeit possibly in the form of understeer, as you describe) to achieve this optimal slip angle. But in a lower speed, tighter turn, you have to rotate the car, indpendent of steering input, to get the slip angles up to where they need to be. This not only minimizes the amount of unwinding of the wheel that's required, but it allows the tires to operate at their maximum grip, allowing you to transition (smoothly, of course) back to the throttle more assertively, providing the maximum exit speed, which after all is the ultimate goal. Am I close?



And your point is well taken about looking through the turns, as this is something I struggled with immensely early on. Believe me, this is something my instructors have really pounded into me, to the point where I think it's really not too big of an issue anymore. This is why I was so surprised at how much trouble I was having unwinding the wheel at the tighter track. I'll keep working at it, though, as it never hurts to keep reminding myself to keep looking ahead.

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[Jim Child]

[quote name='Cloud9...68' post='49897' date='Mar 28 2008, 03:58 AM']Is there a general rule of thumb as to when and how much to throttle steer, depending on the nature of the turn?[/quote]



There really is no rule of thumb as it varies from turn to turn. It even varies in the same turn lap to lap as grip levels change. Lift only enough to point the car where you want it and no more. Lifting slows you down, so you want to use it as sparingly as possible. You'll develop a feel for it with some practice.



Another thing to note is to use the least steering input possible. Feeding in more steering input when the car is understeering is bad for a couple of reasons. The more steering input you have the more speed you're scrubbing off. Also, the more you torture your front tires, the more quickly they'll go off, and the less grip you'll have which will only make the understeer problem worse. Its much better to rotate the car with the throttle and take care of the front tires.



Its good that you're looking up and through the turn. Perhaps the only thing left to do is concentrate on aiming at the exit curbing.

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[rhudeboye]

This thread is GOLD!

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[RS Barn]

You can actually feel the drag of front tires on exit. If you unwind the wheel you can feel the car accelerate off the corner.

Lots of great driver info here from some excellent pilots.

Pete

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[333pg333]

The 'look where you want to be instead of where you are' is the best tip of all. It's like throwing a ball to someone. You don't look down in front of you, just to the recipient and do it without thinking. Your innate knowledge just takes care of it for you. Same thing. Your peripheral vision will take care of what's in front of you as you look ahead and through the apex. Your instincts will pretty much take over. You will naturally lift off if you feel yourself understeering towards the grass/wall/hay-bales etc.

I think this is more paramount in the n/a cars as it's crucial that you carry as much corner speed as possible and not go in too hot. Seems as if the old pro showed you a new way to try. It's a little different with turbo cars as you are generally coming into corner at a higher speed and need to hit the anchors a little harder. When I went in a 996 GT2 with a total Pro, (LeMans driver, Carrera Cup winner, Bathurst 1000 winner, Targa Tasmania winner, Australian Touring car champion etc) he hit the brakes much harder than I was expecting and then got back on the gas hard. Not much inbetween but in some off camber corners he certainly throttle steered as he was constantly on the edge of traction, so it was 'slip-catch-slip-catch' in tiny increments, all the while rocketing forwards. He did it pretty much the same when he drove me around in my car. Interesting experience, and one that made me want a dry sump system and slicks!



Here's the 2 cars in question. I realize that this is a 968 forum, but what the heck, we're all brothers in arms no?

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[Cloud9...68]

Been up to my elbows in my first belt/water pump/front seal replacement, so I haven't had a chance to respond to this thread. As usual, I have a question:



Rather than getting on the gas hard enough after turn-in to cause to car to swing wide of the apex due to understeer, and then have to rely on throttle steer to rotate the car back online (without having to crank the wheel, and all the trouble that causes), why not just target applying just the right amount of throttle after turn-in to settle the car, and to build that all-important momentum, without setting up an understeering situation, which requires throttle steer to correct?



In other words, is throttle steer a crucial part of cornering technique that should be utilized whenever possible, or is it a means of correcting a "mistake?" I strongly believe it's the former, otherwise it wouldn't be used so universally, but as I was thinking this through today, I couldn't help but thint, "Why not just get the throttle application right in the first place to carry you through the turn correctly, and be done with it?"



As far as looking ahead, yes I couldn't agree more about its importance. After my first (disastrous!) DE weekend, I realized that even in my daily life, I tend to look down at the ground, a few feet in front of me, even as I walk. I've had to literally retrain my eyes by forcing myself to look up to end of, say, the corridor I'm walking down. I've take it a step further by imagining I can look through the wall at the corner I'm about to round, seeing in my mind's eye what's around the corner, and seeing myself walking around the corner, up the stairs, whatever, while I'm still a good distance away from the corner. I'd hop backwards on one foot at work if I thought it could improve my track driving! I know, I need professional help (but that's what you guys are for <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> )

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[333pg333]

Yes it's funny the stuff we do to improve our hobby, sport, passion. Soon you'll think you have X-ray vision. lol.

I agree with you that ideally the best thing is not to have to throttle steer at all, but so many things change as you circulate that t/s'ing is just a way of tidying up a little. I would like to do a really comprehensive test of how braking and steering points can have an effect on corner speeds and lap times. As you would know by now, the corner you're in can have a bearing on the following ones so it's hard to isolate what's best. Apparently trail braking IS a way of becoming faster through some tests. I feel that trail braking and throttle steering are related. You are slowing and turning at the same time. Just to throw a spanner in the works. Sometimes if I have to make a lane change so to speak, I do it with one swift motion of the wheel. Just flick it towards the direction that I wish to go and back to straight ahead, and the car just drifts across. Rather than turn on a constant radius. This is in a straight line and takes well under a second to do. Not really related to this exact topic, but just goes to show how different people do things and the way cars behave. I also let go of the wheel at times and let the car return it to center, although not much on the track. Celebrated Porsche test driver Paul Frere did this on the track so I'm not alone or in bad company. lol.

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