[Cloud9...68]

Good info - I'll follow up with those guys about the headers. And yes, I understand I will be putting a lot of extra strain on all the suspension componenets. For now, I'm replacing all of the rubber bushings and mounting points with spherical, delrin, and solid, as the case may be. The ball joints appear to be in very good shape, but more than likely, I'll eventually end up replacing the A-arms, hubs, and spindles, but for now, I'm going to take my chances that these components will hold out for awhile.



Definitely looking forward to info on the chassis brace and the firewall brace (I thought you were planning to get out of the parts production business - is this a last hurrah?)

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[flash]

i'm not sure what's going on with the parts thing just now - i can't seem to escape it, so perhaps i need to step it up - a lot of the things cross over to the 944, so i may take a shop space and hire people and do this for real - i'm working on the business plan now to see if it makes sense - i'm pretty sure it will continue in some fashion or another, and that i can lower the prices on a number of things

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[Cloud9...68]

I'm not sure what's better news, that, or the F1 track plans near Austin that seem to be coming together. Not that I care a whole lot about F1 (not competitive enough for my taste, though the technology is fascinating), but the thought of possibly driving my newly track-worthy 968 on what could be the greatest road course on the planet has me salivating. Can't wait to see how your plans fall together.

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[benspeeder]

Hey Cloud - I'd do the a-arms and spindles now. It's the best insurance against a total loss. Bunch of folks - Pablo, Kip Vanseinburg and a bunch of other racers have sustainded massive damage due to failures. Pablo's car was friggin bent in two like a bannana from his hit. You'll be that much more confidant on the track knowing that's off the upgrade list.

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[Cloud9...68]

Gulp... That would be a big additional hit to the budget I wasn't prepared for.



I'm not planning to actually start racing anytime soon. My immediate goal is to go through the courses at the driving academy (Driveway Austin) near my home, which will take me at least a year, continuing with track days, and then think about dipping my toe into competitive racing. But with no trailer, a vehicle to pull one, and space for neither, plus two kids to put through college (and they're both girls, so there's the wedding thing looming as well), I don't know where I'd come up with the money to race in the foreseeable future. I'm so envious of you guys who can manage to race as a hobby - you must all be orthodontists, neurosurgeons, or CEOs of major corporations, as near as I can figure .



My immediate goal is to make the car more fun and capable for track day driving, which, while pretty tough on the suspension and tires, shouldn't give anywhere near the level of pounding that competitive racing would. I'm planning to care of the seats, harness, roll bar, springs, shocks, bushings, wheels, tires, engine rebuild, flywheel, and clutch now, and then maybe sometime in 2012 or 2013, doing the A-arms and spindles. Does this make any sense? Thanks for the inputs - definitely some food for thought.

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[flash]

i don't think i would be going too aggressive on tires and wheels until i had the spindles and hubs done - this is exactly why i don't take my car to the track more - i know that i am really loading up the suspension with the tire size i have - i know a lot of people say it's "ok" but they usually have a vested interest in setting up your car and getting you out on the track, and will often compromise on things, just because they will lose the customer if they don't - unfortunately they don't generally step up when they guess wrong and you stuff the car into the wall because something broke - that one makes me crazy - i hate hearing things like "we've never had a problem with it", though they have not done any real testing or materials stress analysis - that kind of thinking always leads to really bad results when things go wrong



remember that something has to give somewhere - i'd rather it was the tire than the suspension - when a tire slips, you can usually recover - when a suspension component fails, you lose control and crash

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[Cloud9...68]

Hmmm... That's two heavyweight votes to upgrade major components of the front suspension to prevent possible disaster due to the additional stress I will be putting on my car. You guys make good points, and I can definitely see the strong case for the achievement of peace of mind..



So we're talking about three components: The A-arm, with its built-in ball joint, the hub, and the spindle. Racers Edge carries a nice-looking upgraded A-arm ($1600 for the pair - actually fairly reasonable, since it includes the ball joint and the spherical front bushing), and billet aluminum hubs, at $800 for the pair. But they don't carry any type of upgraded spindle. From what I recall, the M030 spindles are the only upgraded spindles available for the 968, and I seem to remember the term "rarer than hens' teeth" used to describe their availability. And aren't they chest-clutchingly expensive? Or am I remembering these details about the hubs incorrectly?



Ben says to upgrade the A-arms and spindles, and Flash says to do the hubs and spindles - that's two votes for what seems to be the most troublesome of the three components. Do I need all three components right away? If not, which should I prioritize? And if upgraded spindles are considered a must, where can I get them? Thanks.

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[flash]

the a-arm change would be due to the ball joints and their pin size, which i mentioned as well



as for which ones to use, i think pete has tried all of them, and likely has input on which ones have failed and which ones have not

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[Cloud9...68]

But what about the spindles?

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[pmcrespo]

As I wipe my tears off....<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/cool.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> (thanks for the reminder Ben - <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/mad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> You owe me a drink - double- for making me cringe again <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> )



I agree:

1. A-arms with el grande mucho fat ball joint pins is Numero Uno.
2. Hubs second if not concurrently. (edited - wrote spindles unintentionally)
3. then run all the rim and tire you feel works best for the tracks and hp/weight you will run.

On the front 8.5" wheels, they work well with 245 Hoosier R6 rubber. This season I am running 255s in front (on same wheels) to dial out some push now that I am running a big airplane wing and diffuser at the rear end.... A lot of folks have been very succesful runnng 10" all around but those are highly developed cars with full aero packages and driver style to compliment it. Otherwise the tradeoff will not always be faster. I may end up there as well but for now I am trying to keep the weight down and see if the 255s get me there....

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[Cloud9...68]

Who carries upgraded spindles? Are M030's the only type available?



Are you guys sure that for a case like mine, where I'm probably going to run 18 x 8.5 wheels with 245/35 (or maybe 40)/18 tires in the front, and 18 x 10 wheels with 285/35/18 tires in the back, on some kind of "in-between" track/high performance summer tires, running only 20-minute, non-competitive track practice sessions for the next year or so, that I'd need to invest what's looking like close to $5K in A-arms, hubs, and spindles? You guys are the experts, but this really strikes me as overkill. Now, once I start racing competitively, I wouldn't hesitate, but for now, as a beginner, just learning the craft, really??

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[benspeeder]

Cloud - I'd give Pete at the Barn a call. He can set you up according to budget. You can send him your stock A-arms and he can hog out the stock and put in a bigger ball joint & pin - that is one way to save some big bucks. I was going to say hubs and spindles aren't that expensive but then I looked at some old invoices and uh.....yeah. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/blink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> We may have a mutual driver friend at the Driveway - left ya a PM.





I live dangerously and this is some great insurance - especially when we know that if this stuff breaks the real bill will be massive. Pete did me right and made sure I had the right stuff to be safe.



Pablo - I do owe you many beers because I got to buy a bunch of your stuff off the mangled wreckage. Cost savings in getting my car prepped. Do you have any Summit Point video? I was there for a shakedown race this weekend and didn't quite have the line. Ran that place in a 500hp stock car 5 years ago and the way I remembered driving that place did NOT work for the 968. Dominated in the rain and lost positions in the dry....

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[Cloud9...68]

I'm still debating over this front suspension upgrade stuff. On the one hand, given my circimstances, it's possible that I may not do any competitive racing for five years. So, while the track day driving I'll do is still pretty hard on the car, it's no where near as demanding as full-on racing. Also, the tracks I drive on are pretty much wide open, so even if I suffered a catastrophic suspension failure, I'd just slide onto the grass and eventualy come to a stop (at least that's what I keep telling myself <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> )



But I just thought of a flip side - I remembered that the previous owner had installed aftermarket springs which he says lowered the car by about 1". Uh-oh... Without compensating with a longer, tougher ball joint pin, doesn't this put extra strain on the pin? Or is 1" not enough to worry about?

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[flash]

well, you really need to look at the roll center and the orientation of the control arm to know that for sure - 1" isn't a lot, but it is near the limit, and if you add big wheels, especially if they add weight, then you start adding load, and potentially beyond what the joint can handle - there are larger pin joints, but i don't know if they fit OEM control arms or not - you could re-engineer the control arm locations, to raise the roll center back up, but that gets as pricey as the control arms



i seriously would do tires and wheels dead last - i would set up the suspension the best you can first - then drive it and see where you are, carefully reading the tire wear, before adding more load to that suspension - you want the tires to be the point that breaks loose, not the joints

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[Cloud9...68]

Flash,



At the moment, the control arms (and seemingly 90% of the rest of the parts that comprise a 968) are off the car, so I can't make any measurements. My concern is with the fact that the car has been lowered a bit for the past seven years, and whether this has placed undo strain on the ball joint pins (jeez, if you wouldn't know any better, it almost sounds like I'm starting to understand a bit of this suspension stuff...). I'm getting new springs and shocks, so the roll center will change at that time; I'll have to be careful with setting it.



And I hear you about the tires; I have a nearly fresh set of Sumitomo HTRZIIIs now, so it might make sense to optimize things with these tires. But won't the car behave dramatically differently with larger, wider wheels and stickier tires, which will impact at least the optimal spring rates, if not the shock settings, and probably a whole host of other stuff? In other words, how well can I extrapolate the suspension settings with my ultimate set of wheels and tires using the wheels and tires I currently have? Thanks.

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[flash]

if the correct components are chosen, and things aren't being masked by incorrect ones, and assuming that the weights of the existing tires and wheels are similar to the new ones, the car will not behave all that differently with what you have now than it will with super sticky big fat race tires - it will just do what it does longer - basically the lean, bump, rebound, roll, onset weight transfer and all that will remain essentially the same - the car will just hold a corner longer with the stickier tires - transitional weight transfer will be different, but only because the moment of transfer will change - that will not be difficult to adapt to though when you change to the bigger stuff



bottom line, the settings won't change much - you may change compression and rebound settings a bit (assuming you have them), but that would really only be because of the sidewall composition change

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[Cloud9...68]

Flash,



That sounds good. Plus, your recommendation would defer the major expense of new wheels and tires a bit.

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