[ds968]

Had a rather unfriendly exchange with a non-denominational cult member this morning when I stopped the car briefly by the curb in front of a church so I could reply to a text. He actually knocked on my window and said " - you know, this is reserved church parking on Sundays so will you be here long ? ". Unbe-f'ing-lievable ! First of all, did he not have anything better to do ? Secondly, what kind of an annoying, miserable " busy body " person does that ? I was stunned, thinking ..seriously ?! And besides, how did he know I was not a church member - it's not as if I had a Darwin bumper sticker on my 968.. Now , I'm usually a nice, non-confrontational diplomatic dude, but it was just one of those mornings when I was not in a particularly good mood so I stunned him in return by quoting a verse from the bible : " be fruitful and multiply ! " Not in those exact words, but the general meaning was there . :-) :-)

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[968Syncro]

Many people who are members of a religion feel privileged, they feel like they have some gift above and beyond the common man, which is often internalized as having some power that is greater than others.  And they like to exert that perceived power whenever possible, because it makes them somehow feel elevated (like providing some "moral" guidance to a nearby stranger while he is doing the right thing to not drive and text).  It is positioned as being helpful (like crusades and missionaries) but it is nothing more than an attempt to apply some illusory sense of power.

 

Now given that a deep and uncompromisable belief in religion is really an illusion and a form of mental illness, and requires a specific irrational commitment to "pretend in truths" which are not facts --- I don't understand how these people can have such a "high almighty" attitude.

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[Bulti]

Careful, Mufti sounds a bit too close to Bulti, we don't want Philippe to be "profiled" by the authorities .. :-) .

Lol, no worries, our authorities are too busy wasting their time on figuring out why the German Intelligence hacked our telephone network on behalf of the NSA apparently. Google "Regin". It's like Mission Impossible in real life :-)

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[flash]

when i run across people like that, who don't know any better, have no qualified justification, merely stake claim to the "moral high ground" because they "believe", and take the position that all others are less than them because they don't believe, i am repeatedly brought to a point where i want to comment "methinks the lady doth protest too much".  i mean, who are they trying to convince?

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[Rap]

I take offense at your comment that a belief in religion is a form of mental illness. I respect your right to your own beliefs but is it necessary to say something like that. It goes beyond the normal sense of discourse we have here.

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[flash]

maybe not necessary, and i'm not sure i would have chosen those words, but it could be argued that succumbing to religion is not unlike succumbing to a virus.  cult leaders prey on the weak for that very reason.  tv evangelists do too.  lol - fortunately it is often curable with a nice dose of logic and common sense.  in extreme cases, an irs audit will usually cure that particular "bug".

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[94SilverCab]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene

 

Not sure you can call religion a form of mental illness, but it may be genetic. I suppose in Flash the gene is recessive.

 

In my own case, despite a very strong early religious upbringing, I rejected formal religion, but retain a sense of spirituality. I would like to think that there is some order to the chaos, though I can't imagine a higher being having any interest in my personal choices.

 

I do not believe spirituality and morality are linked (i.e. I have a very strong sense of right and wrong, without relying on "God" whispering in my ear). 

 

Jay

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[ds968]

I think the term mental illness is harsh, perhaps in large part by virtue of the condition which most people envision and associate with that term when they hear it.  And although there have been many notable doctors and scientists who have clinically categorized it as such, I think that's a misappropriated term for something which is little more than a basic human need to fill whatever emotional gap or gaps with fantasy which so conveniently provides the "answers" for everything in one's life.  It's just an easy thing to latch on to and hold tight with an unwillingness to accept reason and rational thought because not only does it contradict what you've heard all your life from family or friends or peers or the entire community, but also because of what you WANT to believe. And there are billions who subscribe to the same or similar beliefs , so how can you possibly be wrong...right ?  Not  a mental illness, but maybe it can be simply called a psychological weakness ( and we all have those, all in different categories, lol  ) which is converted into a false sense of strength by so-called FAITH.  Nothing "ill" about that, UNTIL you are so delusional that you carry your belief to extremes and it governs practically everything you do in life and in your interaction with others.                                   

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[Rap]

Do we have and psychologists or psychiatrists here who can confirm that having religious beliefs is a psychological weakness. I'm not sure that this has a billing code or diagnosis.

Again my point was we have often had difficult discussions on a variety of topics without sinking to this. Believe what you will but don't tell me I have a mental illness. I may be and suffer from many things, take your pick, but mental illness is not one of them.

This is a great example, although I doubt purposeful, of why humanity has suffered and suffers from religious intolerance and disagreements.

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[ds968]

That's one of the issues ; religious intolerance is practiced 100 % ( not just 99% , but 100 % ) by religious people .

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[flash]

it could be argued that the belief in god is a mental illness, as any other condition of seeing things that were not there, hearing voices that were not real, or any other such manifestation of a fictional character, would constitute delusion, which is at a minimum a symptom of mental illness.  there is no distinction in any medical text that i know of exempting the belief in god from being nothing more than a delusion.

 

there is already a well accepted statistic that almost 1 in 5 people suffer from some sort of mental illness. i would not be surprised if it were not a lot higher.

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[968Syncro]

Not to fan the flames too much more, but some readers might be wondering if I should write back.  Sometimes the term mental illness is used to describe some combination of psychological and psychiatric causes.   I think that we can discount the psychiatric basis in this case, but we should continue to explore the psychological basis.  Since mental illness encapsulates both terms, technically it is not incorrect.   There is more here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mental_disorders.  Look through the list. In short there are plenty of "mental or behavioral people problems" which medicine and the common man would not categorize as psychiatric and but still a "mental disorder".  Therefore use of the term was not incorrect, but perhaps "politically incorrect" since the DSM-V seems to use the term "mental disorder".

 

And then the question of appropriate writing for the forum.  I am not sure what the problem is, my opinion or declaration was about religion, not addressed at any one person or person.  The subject was clearly religion, not what any forum participant believes, has done, or any other such "ad hominem" attack.  Sorry if anybody is uncomfortable with the subject, but it isn't meant as a personal insult.  Don't read it if you don't want to.

 

In this case I am worried that the described offense is based on some a priori notion that religion is somehow off limits from criticism, but that certainly is a wide open invitation for criticism.

 

I wish I hadn't written such a general statement.  I wish I had written that some religions, and too many religious members, and certainly way too many religious leaders are mentally ill.  We can certainly list the recent evidence of mental illness:  ISIS, Scientology, radical Islam, Serbian Christians, Jerry Falwell, etc.   If these groups are not mentally ill, then we should start over.  But I usually generalize across all "faith-based" religions, they are pretty much all the same with very, very few differences.

 

Anyway, I may have written about it before, but there is a family personal experience.  The person was really captured by a religious group, really brainwashed, and it turned out to be very damaging.  The simple message of this group (like all religions) was:  "do what we tell you, and god will take care of you".   Which turned out to be false and incredibly damaging.  Sure there was comfort in having a "father figure (god)", stuff he would do and you didn't have to, comfort in "supposed" salvation, comfort in a group of people with like thinking congratulating each other.  But how much will someone pay in damages to obtain these comforts?  This person fought like hell for about 12-18 months to free himself of these phony-baloney teachings, it was very difficult.  And guess what?  The person became free, productive, helpful to others, more moral, life got better without religion, and he actually could live a life of truth seeking much better than being indoctrinated by a bunch of guys in robes spewing 2,000 year old garbage.

 

I think if this person was still brainwashed, he would also have taken offense at the term "mental illness".

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[WJH]

Had a rather unfriendly exchange with a non-denominational cult member this morning when I stopped the car briefly by the curb in front of a church so I could reply to a text. He actually knocked on my window and said " - you know, this is reserved church parking on Sundays so will you be here long ? ". Unbe-f'ing-lievable ! First of all, did he not have anything better to do ? Secondly, what kind of an annoying, miserable " busy body " person does that ? I was stunned, thinking ..seriously ?! And besides, how did he know I was not a church member - it's not as if I had a Darwin bumper sticker on my 968.. Now , I'm usually a nice, non-confrontational diplomatic dude, but it was just one of those mornings when I was not in a particularly good mood so I stunned him in return by quoting a verse from the bible : " be fruitful and multiply ! " Not in those exact words, but the general meaning was there . :-) :-)

So, was it reserved? Was it posted? If so, I'm not seeing a problem. It seems like a polite question to me. I'm not seeing how the "church" part factors into this. Did you think he was mentally ill. LOL 

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[ds968]

No signs of any kind indicating that area was reserved for church parking . It was outside the church's parking lot, on a main street by the curbside which just happened to be in front of that church. Polite question ?! Not at all, quite the contrary ; I found it to be a totally obnoxious, none of his business intrusion while I was merely stopped in my car and texting . Maybe if I would have parked there, got out and left the car where it was it might have justified his asking me how long the car will be there, but again without any signs that the curbside belongs to church members only, even that would have been pushing the boundries of minding his own business ..if he would have been wearing a parking attendant vest maybe I would have been kinder with my reply, lol. As for tne church factoring in all of this, I suppose it's just coincidence, but he sure came across as if he was , as flash put it, on a " moral high ground " , a trait which I find to be very common among many-a God-fearin' folk. :-)

And as I said ..unless he knows whet every single member of that congregation drives, how did he know I was not there to attend mass ? Or maybe I was dropping off my mentally ill grandma who was ready to donate her entire social security check to tne church until he ruined that chance :-)

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[WJH]

Okay, sounds like he was out of line. I don't really see "morality" playing into this. The world is full of obnoxious people, and many of them don't "belong" to a church so they aren't even mentally challenged! If this guy was a church member, his mental disease probably played a part in his behavior.

 

It is probably best not to stop outside of a church, someone might get the wrong idea about your mental state. LOL

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[Rap]

DS do you tell every morally objectionable person you run into to be fruitful and multiply? What happened to civil discourse? You must be uttering this all day long. Seems like you were well within you rights to have gotten out of your car and beat him to death. Clearly he was interfering with your right to free speech.

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[ds968]

I agree, the "church" certainly does not hold exclusive rights to the obnoxious people in this world, and perhaps the majority of religios people could actualy be the kinder, gentler types...we're exposed mostly to the nutcases that take over the media waves and spew 2000 year old garbage, as Roland said, and then you see how thousands and thousands of their audience acknowledge everything they hear with approving nods and those permanent euphoria gtins on their faces, so one can't help but paint churchgoers with a wider brush when you see the following that evangelists and politicians that talk about " god " in every other sentence . Now, as I said before, those guys may not believe a single word that comes out of their mouths and it's all about pandering to the weak and naive to take advantage of them, but still...highly obnoxious, lol.

As for the god and saints only parking enforcement officer , had I not been in a non-tolerant mood that morning I would have been kinder and gentler with my response, but really the tone of voice and attitude with which he asked me if I was going to be there long, just bugged me . I did not say FU , I told him to F OFF.

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[Rap]

Yes I can see now how the difference makes it a more acceptable use of your free speech. I did not understand that nuance before. If you didn't go out in the morning would you be more pleasant to these obviously mentally ill church going cultists? Did you know that some Catholic congregations have mass on Saturday night which counts towards going on Sunday? Perhaps it was instituted so these mentally ill church going cultists could avoid these non tolerant morning people. When I get down on my knees tonite to pray I will ask God if that was the case. Of course there is no guarantee that I will get an answer to that question. But of course you knew that!

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[968Syncro]

If you didn't go out in the morning ... [then]...church going .....could.......avoid these non tolerant morning people.

 

I am a morning person -- gotta problem with that?  I'm offended by that comment!

 

I was offended just now and my position is clearly superior.

What?  you were offended?

Yes, I was.

No I was offended first!  Because of what YOU wrote!

Probably because you were on the defensive.

But regardless, I declared being offended first.

Declaration is only temporal, not eternally truthful.

Well I was offended only because I sensed offensiveness.

Oh yeah .... well being offended is actually a defensive position.

Oh no, being offended makes one highly offensive.

Well, what are you going to do as an offensive person?

Make sure others are offended.

Is that why a defensive person feels offended?

Well, offense is certainly more important than defense.

Oh no, defense always wins.

Tastes great!

Less filling!

Well who got to be offended first?  I was only defensive while being offended.

What do you mean who got there first?

I mean who is on first?

How should I know who is on first?

 

Costello: Well then who's on first?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: I mean the fellow's name.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy on first.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The first baseman.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy playing...

Abbott: Who is on first!

Costello: I'm asking YOU who's on first.

Abbott: That's the man's name.

Costello: That's who's name?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.

Abbott: That's it.

Costello: That's who?

Abbott: Yes.

PAUSE

Costello: Look, you gotta first baseman?

Abbott: Certainly.

Costello: Who's playing first?

Abbott: That's right.

Costello: When you pay off the first baseman every month, who gets the money?

Abbott: Every dollar of it.

Costello: All I'm trying to find out is the fellow's name on first base.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy that gets...

Abbott: That's it.

Costello: Who gets the money...

Abbott: He does, every dollar. Sometimes his wife comes down and collects it.

Costello: Who's wife?

Abbott: Yes.

PAUSE

Abbott: What's wrong with that?

Costello: Look, all I wanna know is when you sign up the first baseman, how does he sign his name?

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: How does he sign...

Abbott: That's how he signs it.

Costello: Who?

Abbott: Yes.

PAUSE

Costello: All I'm trying to find out is what's the guy's name on first base.

Abbott: No. What is on second base.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first.

Costello: One base at a time!

Abbott: Well, don't change the players around.

Costello: I'm not changing nobody!

Abbott: Take it easy, buddy.

Costello: I'm only asking you, who's the guy on first base?

Abbott: That's right.

Costello: Ok.

Abbott: All right.

PAUSE

Costello: What's the guy's name on first base?

Abbott: No. What is on second.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott: He's on third, we're not talking about him.

Costello: Now how did I get on third base?

Abbott: Why you mentioned his name.

Costello: If I mentioned the third baseman's name, who did I say is playing third?

Abbott: No. Who's playing first.

Costello: What's on first?

Abbott: What's on second.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott: He's on third.

Costello: There I go, back on third again!

PAUSE

Costello: Would you just stay on third base and don't go off it.

Abbott: All right, what do you want to know?

Costello: Now who's playing third base?

Abbott: Why do you insist on putting Who on third base?

Costello: What am I putting on third.

Abbott: No. What is on second.

Costello: You don't want who on second?

Abbott: Who is on first.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott & Costello Together:Third base!

PAUSE

Costello: Look, you gotta outfield?

Abbott: Sure.

Costello: The left fielder's name?

Abbott: Why.

Costello: I just thought I'd ask you.

Abbott: Well, I just thought I'd tell ya.

Costello: Then tell me who's playing left field.

Abbott: Who's playing first.

Costello: I'm not... stay out of the infield! I want to know what's the guy's name in left field?

Abbott: No, What is on second.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first!

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott & Costello Together: Third base!

PAUSE

Costello: The left fielder's name?

Abbott: Why.

Costello: Because!

Abbott: Oh, he's centerfield.

PAUSE

Costello: Look, You gotta pitcher on this team?

Abbott: Sure.

Costello: The pitcher's name?

Abbott: Tomorrow.

Costello: You don't want to tell me today?

Abbott: I'm telling you now.

Costello: Then go ahead.

Abbott: Tomorrow!

Costello: What time?

Abbott: What time what?

Costello: What time tomorrow are you gonna tell me who's pitching?

Abbott: Now listen. Who is not pitching.

Costello: I'll break your arm, you say who's on first! I want to know what's the pitcher's name?

Abbott: What's on second.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott & Costello Together: Third base!

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[ds968]

Lol, don't hold your breath waiting for a response from god. And hey, no big deal if you ( or anyone ) pray or talk to your god, but if he / she / it happens to talk to you ( or to anyone ) then it's probably time to start worrying :-) :-) .

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