[biotechee]

I know a few folks have done the manual steering rack conversion and I am wondering if any of said individuals have created a parts list?



I know Paragon sells a complete kit with new parts, but I would not be against using some used and some new.



Any help is appreciated.



If I can get everything for a reasonable price, I will probably do it. I figure that I can accumulate parts over the corse of a year or so then do the install. Not having to worry about the fluid and the leaks and the parasitic loss is worth the extra effort to turn the wheels at slow speed. Besides, I need to tone my biceps a little! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

lol - having done this in other cars, i can confirm that you need to start working out now



what ratio rack is it? i can't even imagine losing power steering with the size of tires i have now - oof! - but, i am poking around for a tighter ratio rack (something with less than 3 turns lock to lock)



but, the extra 3-4hp and no leaks are attractive



how about electric power steering?

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[biotechee]

Fortunately, I only have 17's on my '68, so I won't have to work out as much!!! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



I would imagine parallel parking and K turns would be the equivalent of a 30 minute cycling class at the local LA Fitness, especially with 18's.... That said, the ratio on the manual rack is supposed to better geared (when compared to a power rack that is kaput) to help with slow speed turning. I'm sure it is still difficult, but I am willing to live with that for the benefits the manual rack provides over the power:



- no power steering fluid leaks (no more ruined castor block or bushings!)

- no parasitic loss on engine from having to turn power steering pump

- very slight (most likely un-noticeable) increase in HP due to: weight savings and no parasitic loss

- less parts to fail means inherently better service life, hopefully less expensive to maintain in the long haul

- buff biceps, delts and pecs, probably good for the lats too!

- good mod for track crowd as long as it's legal in your class (I do not intend to track ever)



Downside- probably sucks in city traffic!



UPDATE- a Rennlister pointed me towards a post in the Rennlist DIY section which is a pretty comprehensive procedure (including parts list) for converting to a manual rack. I cross posted my request there. Apparently, the parts from late model 944's are the ticket. My only issue with the DIY is it calls out 2 each of the inner and outer tie rod ends- I believe only 1 each is required.... Will post on Rennlist to ask.



Both Paragon and 944online carry conversion kits at about $850 to $900. These kits appear to include new parts. The rack itself may very well be refurbished, but I don't know. Pretty straightforward, plus you can probably sell your old pump and rack to offset the cost, assuming they are in good condition.



Regarding electric- I thought about that, but when I factor in that I could probably get most of the manual parts used and in excellent condition, the price to swing the electric (and the subsequent cost to adapt it however necessary, because it is not plug and play) certainly keeps me focused on converting to manual. Furthermore, I am not really enthused with draining the battery any more than our already electrically-intensive cars do. And, electrical systems have there own inherent problems to begin with... Nothing like good ol' rack and pinion!

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[banditsc]

If I recall correctly the new GTI's use some sort of a electro magnetic steering rack.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

here's something to think about - a manual rack usually has a larger number of turns lock to lock to give the mechanical advantage required to be able to steer the car without the benefit of power - on the track this is bad - the number of turns lock to lock is already pretty high, and on tight turns you find yourself with your hand on your knee - a manual rack would only exacerbate that - you could easily end up in an arms over elbows wresting match - i'd check one out before you buy



that's why i am looking for a power rack with less than 3 turns lock to lock



however, yes, you would gain some power, and lose the issue of leaks (though on any other car, this is a not a big issue)



as for the damage to bushings, as soon as you start thinking track, you usually replace the bushings with monoball anyway (heck, i did it on my street car and am very happy with it), so that problem sorts itself out by default



the more i think about it, the more i remember driving cars with big tires and manual steering, and the more i am glad i have power - i think i am getting old and lazy

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='banditsc' post='38370' date='Jul 17 2007, 01:21 PM']If I recall correctly the new GTI's use some sort of a electro magnetic steering rack.[/quote]

Not sure about the GTI, but the new Mazdaspeed 3 has some sort of electric/hydraulic hybrid system. I can't remember how it works, but I know it doesn't have a pump that runs off the engine (thus potentially enabling supercharging without losing ones all-important A/C), but it still uses hydraulic fluid in the rack, unlike full electric systems, so there's still the reservoir, potential for leaks, etc.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

i have been thinking on this one, and here is what i came to:



by all means pursue this if you really want to, but if leaks are what is driving the process, power steering has been around for a very long time - this has not been a huge concern for most cars - i tend to think that solving the specific problem with the reservoir design is more prudent than reinventing the wheel



changing the bushings to monoball or solid material also would be a lot less expensive and time consuming, with the added benefit of better handling



as for the power loss, i already reduced that with power pulleys



for me, the problem is essentially moot, without having to go to that much trouble or deal with the excessive number of lock to lock turns or the struggle with the friction of the tires



i think i am going to follow occam's razor on this one

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[biotechee]

- already have aftermarket blocks, specifically because I had a power steering leak that ate some bushings.... Just because I have reduced the effect of a leak on that particular area of my car does not preclude a leak from happening again. It will, at some point, leak again. Pressurized fluid seals will leak - those bastards!



- power/underdrive pulleys, while helpful for reducing (not eliminating) the parasitic loss, have their own problems, and I would question their long-term effect. I know people run them for thousands of miles, but I'm not sold. Sure- on a $750 Honda motor- sign me up as they are cheap to maintain and rebuild. Not so much on a 968 3.0.



- I wouldn't be reinventing the wheel going manual- the manual parts are Porsche parts which bolt directly in with no modification.... Doesn't get much easier than plug and play, baby!



- In my driving routine, even accessing my garage/driveway/etc., I can't ever recall needing to rotate the wheel completely lock to lock, hell, I don't think I have ever done one complete 360 degree turn..... And not knowing the exact ratio on the manual, I doubt that the extra 1/2 turn or whatever it might be to accomplish lock-to-lock will be seen in said routine.... And if it is, the one or two times I might have the need to explore said lock-to-lock turn count, I'm sure I'll cope!



- Yes- PS has been around a LONG time, and coincedentally, manual rack and pinion appears to have been around a hell of a lot longer



- Yes- PS may not be chronically problematic on other cars, but, IIRC, we're discussing the 968 here.... And PS on the 968 is notoriously problematic for leaks and pumps and racks that go bad (even rebuilt ones are no guarantee- ask Anchor about his wonderful experience regarding power steering racks in the 968.... nothing like not being able to turn in one direction while driving during rush hour!)



- Solving the resevoir design- sounds like custom work to me. Just like you, my time is money that I don't wish to spend reinventing the wheel.



So let's tally this up:



1) Power / Underdrive pully to reduce (not eliminate) parasitic loss on engine - cost of part, cost of new belt (?- don't know if you need a different belt or not), cost to install. I don't have one, so I can't comment, but I'll wager a guess and say that a minimum of $250 all tolled since this is a Porsche nonetheless!



2) Aftermarket blocks to eliminate the "eating" of bushings by potential leaks - had this done - cost of parts and cost of labor. I can go back and look, but I'll guess for now and say $300 or less installed. And handling is subjective- many people would probably like to keep OEM bushings because they like the feel. To each their own. I like them because they look trick and they are inherently better by design when compared to the OEM.



3) The need to replace fluid, lines, pump, belt, rack- we will all have to do it, some sooner than later. I think rebuilt racks can be had for under $200. Rebuilt pump probably less than $90. I dunno... Total would depend on what happened. I only had to have a line replaced. Cheap. Anchor had to replace his rack, IIRC.



4) Redesign the fluid system (new resevoir design, not sure what you have in mind, but I am sure it would be the cat's ass)- I don't even want to wager a guess on what this would cost for the prototype. I sure resultant cost would be in line with all the other excellent products. Not grossly expensive, but not Honda cheap either.



When all that is said and done- you still have a hydraulic system that will fail again. And to maintain said system, I can see where the cost to do so would eventually approach the cost of a manual rack kit install right off the bat or come awfully close on the first shot.



I just about pissed myself laughing when you used the razor on this one! Your view of the razor in this example just doesn't make sense- At best, to fix (and not forever mind you) or upgrade the PS shortfalls of the 968, one must further modify their car with a power pulley, upgraded bushings or castor blocks, then replace hoses and belts, rebuild racks, replace fluids, etc. when time dictates. Forget about custom engineering a new fluid handling system- that is beyond most 968 owners' desires. And all this does not eliminate leaks and it does not eliminate the chance for your rack to simply fail. I found out yesterday that the PS rack has a equalizing valve inside which acts to counterbalance the pressure from one side to the other during turning- that sucker can and will probably stick or fail- hence, you might find yourself not being able to turn in one direction. Not something I want to encounter at any stage of my driving experience.



Therefore, if you boil it down, the simplest thing to do would be to replace the problematic and complicated hydraulic system with a drop in mechanical system. Problem solved- basically forever. You save weight, you eliminate parasitic loss (which increases engine efficiency thereby increase actual RWHP and MPG), and you never have to worry about any leaks or needing expensive rebuilt hydraulic components. Just think of the $10 to $30 in gas per year that you will save!



The only potential downsides I see are:



1) Slow speed turning. Lock-to-lock doesn't factor in because it's not something one needs to do at the spur of the moment- furthermore, we don't know what the ratio is on the manual rack. It may be moot....

2) Mechanical wear on the intermediate shaft U joints. You'll get this eventually on the PS shaft as well... so moot for me.



It's clear to me, upon weighing all the current and potential issues and features that the truly simplest path is a manual rack.



And I'd be one step closer to being green by eliminating the toxic PS fluid and increasing my engine's efficiency . Al Gore will love me, and would probably invite me to his 25,000sqft house to join in on a game of mattress tag with him and Tipper! Ahhh Tipper! Now that is a woman you could cuddle up with and nuzzle as if you were a little grizzly cub in your den with momma bear..... Yes, I have issues!



I'm sure going the manual route is not for the majority, but I would have to guess that not everyone will want to upgrade and maintain an inherently problematic system either.... No matter- to each their own!



And last but not least- chances are getting new parts from Sunset or equivalent will be costly. Finding good used parts maybe an issue as well. At the end of the day, there is a very good chance that I will live with the PS. And I'll eventually get cut by the razor again!



P.S. Saw the strut bars yesterday- look real nice! Can't wait to get mine on!

P.S.S I have too much time on my hands....

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Anchorman]

Bio, without reading everything you wrote, I'd tally it up this way.



You don't drive the car enough.



Start driving it more and you'll want to keep the PS.



A word to the wise. I used to have a car with what we called "PS by Armstrong". No more, thank you very much.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[biotechee]

Just had the insurance switched to my standard policy and just got it inspected last week. Have driven it about 75 miles in two days. Didn't drive it today because I am taking it to Pete's tomorrow just to catch up and outline a plan for preventative maintenance over the next two months.



I had the car with Leland West- limited policy (2500 miles / year) and agreed value, only able to drive for pleasure - no takey to worky. Now, I have it on my regular insurance (Erie) for partial year (April thru Nov) with no mileage restrictions, but no agreed value. Was only another $150 or so for the year. Given the recent market decline in 968 values, agreed value policys don't make sense for me anymore- especially since I do not own a garage queen.



Needless to say, I will be driving it 3-4x weekly, weather permitting, until the time comes to store it for the Winter.



If I can get the parts for reasonable prices, I'll begin acquiring them and eventually do the swap. I won't have to worry about the system anymore and I'll handle the manual steering without issue, just like I did previously.



And secretly, in the back of mind, I'm kinda hoping the 3.0 blows up so I can do the LS conversion! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

i want to be clear that i am not picking a fight here - i understand the frustration with the leaks, but i have been there and done that on this kind of thing, and regretted it



i think the power pulleys cost me 60 bucks, but aren't that expensive retail - only one belt to change (8 bucks) - loss reduction was 7hp (remember, it also reduces the AC and alternator loss) so i am actually just about doubling the benefit of mere power steering loss - lost a pound of weight too, and it was all rotating mass



there are issues with low voltage at idle, but i have the fix for that too, and will implement it in the next few days - cost about 45 bucks - other than that, no issues to date on any car i have ever done this to, including the 25k miles i have on these pulleys



reservoir fix should cost about 50 bucks and take 10 minutes to install - i'll be working on that soon enough



as for the rack failing again, that is a fluke - all racks fail, including manual ones - i had the seals go on the manual racks i used to run - since they run gear oil, they were even messier than the power units when they did fail - rubber wears out and stuff leaks



as for the number of turns, i can't get out of my driveway without the wheel going 360 degrees - how do you avoid that? on the track, the only thing that has made the ratio tolerable is the fact that i have a smaller wheel - even with the seat as low as i have it, i am banging into my leg and my hands are not where i want them - i really want something about 2.75 turns lock to lock



by the way, the stock number of turns is 3.24 lock to lock - the steering wheel ratio is 18.85:1 for left hand drive



when i was talking about "reinventing the wheel" i was referring to implementing a new design rather than merely fixing the problems with the old one



i think that what you are doing is throwing the baby out with the bath water to solve a relatively simple problem, especially since you have already dealt with some of the damageable components



i certainly admire the gumption, and applaud the idea of doing something different, but i don't think you are going to like the result - given the above specs, you can get a feel for what it would be like by merely removing the belt, though i would not drive it that way for long without first consulting josephsc, who has done it - he may have insight into potential complications



there is a big difference between a race car and a street toy - i would never consider many of the things for my street toy that are no brainers on a race car - this is one of them



i'd do a bit more investigation before jumping in - good luck

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[biotechee]

Hehe- not fighting here either. Just presenting a differing, and no less correct opinion. It's not just frustration with leaks, it's the potential to remove a current and future problematic, complicated system with one that is much more robust and simple.



Answer / consider these few things:



1) Given equal numbers of units, what will fail more often, statistically? 968/944 PS or 944 MS? I think the answer is clearly 968/944 PS. Unfortunately, I can't substantiate that data since there were far fewer MS units.



2) Yes all racks can and will most likely fail, but what will last longer without repair, statistically? 968/944 PS or 944 MS? Same answer undoubtedly. (actually- that's the same arguement- sorry!)



3) Check Rennlist. Disconnecting the PS belt to compare full PS with non-powered PS is not a good comparison to get a feel for how a manual rack behaves. The ratio on the PS rack is different because it is powered. With unpowered PS, many have reported that it is harder to turn than the manual because the ratio of the manual is designed for no power. (see point 10 below)



4) You've spent money to correct / fix / modify / etc. your PS. So have I. Fact is, it's still there and it's inherently damage prone by the nature of the beast. There's no changing that.



5) The boots are basically the same - MS vs PS so that's moot - I agree. Boots are less than $20.



6) More to wear out and leak on a PS system than on a MS system, no matter how you modify it. Can't argue that.



7) I live in Eastern PA. Leaving or entering my driveway does not require me to turn the wheel a full 360 degrees. I use two hands when I steer in general. When making sharp turns, I will do hand over hand so that my first hand is not forever attached to the wheel and hitting my thigh/knee. Driven like that for over 20 years. Perhaps I have been driving incorrectly all these years....! You sound like you drive an 18 wheeler when you talk about steering!!!! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> And I think I am bit heftier than you so hands touching thighs/knees is a concern for me as well- never been a problem. 5'11" and 230lbs. Grandma said I was "study", like a tree trunk! I actually hate how close the wheel is to the windshield- that's where most of my bugaboos are with actual steering in the 968.



8) I am glad you got more power / weight loss with using the pulleys. But as you have pointed out, they are not without issue, granted they are minute. But you still have to address them. Now imagine if you didn't have power steering and you had the right power pulleys- even more efficiency and transfered power to the rear wheels. Power pulleys are not for me. Nothing wrong with wanting them or not wanting them.



9) When I view the situation, I see fixes and band aids and additional issues that have to be addressed with the PS system and will probably need to be addressed at some point again in the future. The MS solution is not throwing the baby out with the bath water. It is a simple, mechanical drop-in solution that practically eliminates all future issues associated with the PS steering system, once and for all. The trade-off, from what I can tell, is the loss of a convenience (light steering feel) that we have come accustomed to. If I can source the parts reasonably cost effectively, I might give it a shot.



10) Don't for one second think that I haven't researched the situation. You don't know what I have read or reviewed or investigated, and I haven't jumped in anywhere yet. I appreciate your opinion and your advice, as I do everyone's. Your experiences are valued as are mine. I am not afraid to give it a shot and see what happens, if the price is right.



11) If I do it, I will post my impressions. If it turns out that the manual rack was a bad choice for whatever reason, I will man up and confess.



12) For someone who wants every last ounce, I am actually surprised that you have not tried this on your 968. The initial cost to buy in (for the kit) seems trivial when compared to everything else that you have done to your freakin' awesome 968. Worst comes to worst, one could probably sell the manual system to a 944'er who wants to lose weight for track.



You are arguing for fixing / modifying a complex system to make it less failure prone. I am arguing for replacing said complex system with a simple, inherently less failure prone system. Different approaches, neither is wrong. To each his/her own. Let's leave it at that for now until I (or someone) ponies up with real world results of such a swap.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Eric_K]

As you've found, Rennlist has a lot of posts on this subject. The full kit from Paragon doesn't look too bad to me. I compiled the parts individually, but the kit would be easier and not that much more expensive in the end.

You need the rack, intermediate shaft & tie rods. There are specific tie rods for the late offset cars with manual racks. This combination was available in Europe and they are still available from Porsche. I believe the part number for the complete tie-rod is 944-347-033-03 and they are ~160 each.

It is plug and play fitment. The setup is lighter and simpler. I do wish the ratio was better, but it is not too much of an issue.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

first off, don't get me wrong, i think the stock feel of the power unit is way too light to begin with - i would love a bit more resistance and feel in the wheel - the power pulleys helped with that a bit, but i'd still like a touch more - remember, i spent the previous 25 years in a car with manual steering - i prefer that feel to some extent



however............



i don't think the oem power system is nearly as failure prone as you think, which is probably why we are taking such different approaches - i have only seen a couple of racks actually leak or fail - jim's was a fluke - the leaks i have seen have always been at the reservoir, which i believe is going to be a very simple and inexpensive fix



no, the comparison when removing the belt is not exact, but not so far off either - the ratio on the manual unit is not that different that it is an apples and oranges thing - yes, the power unit without a belt will be more resistant than the manual one, but likely only by about 20% - any chance you can drive a manual unit before doing it?



as for me not doing it, i have done it to other cars, and regretted it every time - the gains were outweighed by the increased number of turns - i have always gone back to power steering - i liked the improved feel at road speed, but i didn't like the increased steering rotation or the resistance at low speed - i was more tired at the end of the day, and spent entirely too much time moving my hands around - one of the reasons i bought this car was that it had power steering - i was VERY tired of wrestling with manual, even on an 1800 lb car



i agree to each his own, and you are right that i have no idea what you have read or what research you have done - by all means power on (lol - or off as the case may be)



i sent you a pm with my number - i'd love to pick your brain and see what you come up with - while we have differing views on this project, and that is fine, the research is similar, and i'd like to know what other options you may have found - i am still trying to find a tighter ratio power rack



good luck and have fun either way

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Cloud9...68]

Bio,



I'm not sure this long discussion settled anything, but I can conclude one thing from it. Even though I'm a reasonably stong guy (but what red-blooded male would say otherwise?) who hits the weight room at least four days a week, I definitely wouldn't want to arm-wrestle you, or anybody else who would contemplate lugging this 3000+ lb beast around corners, or even more to the point, in and out of parking spaces, without the benefit of power assist!

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

yeah - i've spoken to jim on the phone about this (had a lot of fun - hope to do it again), and i understand why he wants to give it a try - it's his car and he has his reasons, which are every bit as valid as the reasons i wouldn't do it - i've certainly tried similar things for similar reasons, so i really don't have a lot of room to criticize, but i'm pretty sure how i would feel about it on this car, and i'm with you

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[biotechee]

Okay - a retraction - Drove the '68 yesterday. I can confirm that I actually do have to turn the wheel 360 degrees when leaving my driveway. I can do it in say 300-ish degrees, but not if somebody is parked on the other side. So I take that comment back. The reason I didn't notice that I needed to rotate the wheel that much is it is not noticeable to me due to the way I drive and how I fit in the car. I specifically paid attention while driving yesterday to see how much I turn the wheel in certain situations.



That said, for some reason, the number of turns that I encounter doesn't bother me at all. I find that I am more cogniscent (sp?) of the turns in my 2004 Jetta than I am in the 968. For some reason, I fit better in the 968 than I do in the Jetta. It is very easy for me to go hand over hand or rotate the wheel lock to lock in the 968 than it is in the Jetta. I certainly have a more relaxed seating position in the 968 than I do in the Jetta and I think that helps. In the 968, my legs are nice and stretched out, and I have no issues reaching the controls. In the Jetta, I can't stretch the legs too much or else I would have difficulty in reaching controls and my arms would be completely stretched to reach the wheel. In the Jetta, full rotations of the steering wheel do cause minor interference with my knees / thighs. It's not bad, but it is present. Not so in the 968.



Also, I noticed how much larger in diameter the Porsche wheel is compared to the Jetta wheel. At the end of the day, I think the layout of the 968 combined with the 12-way drivers seat I have allow for a really well-suited driving position for me. The Jetta feels like you're sitting at the kitchen table, the Porsche feels like you're in a comfortable race car position!!!



Back to the story at hand- I have located a complete used manual steering setup for a good price and have committed on paper to buying it. Should have it in a few weeks. Probably install it in the Fall/Winter.



Worst comes to worst, I'll switch it back to PS if i don't like it. But I still need to give it a shot and see if it is worthwhile. For the money, I'll take the plunge!



Speaking with Bob/Flash is always good! Hadn't spoken to him in a year or two. Let me just say (again Bob!), I am still in awe at the drive and dedication you have to your projects and hobbies. I bow to your determination and skill/knowledge! I'm definitely thankful that you do what you do and share with us. I always enjoy the anticipation of learning about the next thing you come up with..... It helps make 968 ownership MORE FUNNER!!



Cloud- I'm a big wuss! Haven't been to a gym in over 3 years (at least). My wife, whom I outweight by about 80 lbs can probably dust me in arm wrasslin'! She did say that I could get another tat if my biceps got bigger (not fat-wise BTW- doh!)- if that ain't drive enough to get the MS system and get these guns in shape, I don't know what is!! Been dying to get more ink.....! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/cool.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

lol - ok - at least i know i'm not nuts - i was having driveway envy at the very least



i agree it had been too long - let's not let that happen again



don't know if it's dedication or just plain insanity, but thanks



i agree that the ergonomics of the 968 are better than most cars - that's one of the reasons i bought it - the need to feel comfortable in the seat is a go/no go thing for me - the car could be the fastest or most beautiful thing on earth, but if i don't feel right in it, i won't buy it or drive it (hence why i do not own a 911)



i'm guessing that you have your seat way down, and pretty far back - this would be a "street position" - it just dawned on me that if the seat was in "race position", you might feel very differently - you sit pretty upright and much closer to the wheel in a race car, with your arms at closer to a 90 degree angle - that puts the wheel in my way in a hurry, which is why i want to decrease the number of lock to lock turns - i'm tired of stuffing my elbow into my side - the smaller wheel helped though



anyway, have fun with it and let us know how it worked out



and i'm scared of your wife

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[biotechee]

Ha! My wife's a doll! I think I could take her, but it might take a few rounds.... And I don't intend to find out. She'd probably trick me with crying then crush me when I try to console her! Them women folk are devious! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Never knew you had to "ride the wheel" to race, never been racing for that matter, so now I understand more where you're coming from. Yep- the 968 definitely offers a very comfortable seating position for me. I do have it low and back, just far enough back to have a slight bend to the knee and low enough that it is still comfortable to rest my arm on the door when the window is down.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

lol - yeah - i'm not taking on mine either



yup - explains a lot i think - i used to drive with my arms much more comfortabley stretched out, until i started driving on the track - then i found that the danged instructors were right, i was being dense, and i needed to sit more upright and with my arms bent more



i still automatically tend to set the seat in every car to be more lain back and comfortable, but then as i drive each car more, i find myself setting the seat more upright - i really noticed this on my trip to hershey this year - i started out pretty laid back, but by the time i got there i was nearly upright - this was in the denali with its huge "easy chairs" - my arms were very tired from being stretched out too - the trip home was much better



lol - so, i guess the moral of the story is "go drive 6000 miles in a week and see where you end up"

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.