[Cloud9...68]

I'm 99% sure I need a new starter, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to bounce my symptoms off the collective wisdom of this forum before ordering a new one.



The car started normally on Friday when I drove it to work, but when I tried starting it about two hours later to go to my physical therapy appointment (for a herniated disk - so much fun...), the engine wouldn't crank one iota. The power windows, lights, windshield wipers, etc., all worked. It just made a sort of clunking sound when I turned the key to the start position, but there was no sign of any cranking of the starter.



So I had it towed home, and put a charger on the battery, which I then took in to get tested, and it checked out as being in perfect condition. I also checked relays G2 (ignition relay 15) and G14 (ignition relay X), and they are working perfectly. I didn't check relay G22 (anti"block" braking system), however...



Anyway, I next got under the car while my wife turned the key to the start position, and I could hear and feel a loud clank within the starter, which I presume is the starter's pinion shaft smacking into the flywheel ring gear. I tried smacking the starter's body with a hammer to see if I could loosen up the motor assembly, but it still won't turn. Finally, I turned the engine by hand, and it turns with normal effort, ruling out the engine being seized up.



From the description above, is there anything else I should test before ordering a new starter? Would it be worth removing the starter with the cables still attached, and seeing if it turns when turning the key to the start position? I've never tried that, and am wondering if there's any risk, and if it's worth doing, or is it pretty conclusive that I need a new starter? Thanks.

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[flash]

pull it and inspect the pilot bushing. also check for GSS

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[DaveN]

There are also starter relay contacts inside that take the brunt of the current and it they start to get carboned up you will get a click but not enough current will pass to turn the motor. That's what happened to my S2 and I "assume" the starters are probably identical.

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[flash]

have you yet checked the wires UNDERNEATH the sheath down by the starter? they are well known for having the individual insulations deteriorate and cause problems.

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[Cloud9...68]

I checked the function of both ignition relays, and both passed with flying colors, and the way the starter is giving a resounding "clank" when the key is turned to the start position, it seems that it's getting plenty of juice.



The car has new Robby cables

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[Paul W]

If you have pulled the small wire off starter and check it for 12 VDC (starter solenoid) with the switch in "start" and you have a constant 12 VDC on the large power wire, then I'm going to say it's the starter. My issue was with the solenoid, not the starter.....but I replaced the whole thing....it's a quick and easy replacement.



Good luck!

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[flash]

quite possibly GSS



i would look carefully at the pilot bushing though. if it is worn, the shaft won't align properly, and you get a nasty "clank" sound as the starter tries to engage

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[Paul W]

The new starter comes with the pilot bushing....I wonder where you could get it alone.

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[Cloud9...68]

I'll take a good look at the pilot bushing. I'm drawing a blank as to whether the new SMF came with one installed - I don't remember installing one. But the starter worked perfectly until last Friday, with no unusual noise. It just isn't turning. Actually, I take it back - the starter's turning seems to have gotten more labored over the last few weeks.



I thought GSS was the opposite problem - the starter spins, but the shaft doesn't fully extend into the ring gear, giving the characteristic whirring sound of the starter spinning aimlessly without cranking the engine. I had a bad case of that when I got the car back in 2004, and did the clean-up, but what I'm experiencing now is the opposite - the shaft seems to be extending, but the starter motor isn't spinning, at least not as far as I can tell. Oh, and this isn't the starter that was in the car when I bought it - it's about four years old, but the car wasn't running for 2-1/2 of those years.



This is now all theoretical, because I went ahead and ordered a new starter, as I'm in a bit of a hurry to get the car running again.

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[flash]

no - i mean the starter pilot bushing. that is what aligns the starter as it moves into the flywheel. if that is worn, the gear gets out of alignment and jams up.

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[Cloud9...68]

Gotcha - a little sleep-deprived today. I'll take a close look at it. I can see how that could cause problems with the starter turning, although I would think that's a part that doesn't see a whole lot of wear, as it just supports a shaft that spins in circles a few times a week (in my case). But definitely worth a look.

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[MB968]

[quote name='Paul W' timestamp='1380566677' post='150076']

The new starter comes with the pilot bushing....I wonder where you could get it alone.

[/quote]



You can get just the bushing from Sunset. I ordered one when doing work on mine.

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[Cloud9...68]

How hard is it to take the old bushing out? I seem to remember looking at it during my rebuild, deciding it would be too difficult to yank it out, and left the old one in. Is there a special tool made for removing it?



Also, was your old bushing worn? I just don't see how this thing could wear a whole lot, unless the starter wasn't properly tightened, or had a wobbly shaft for some other reason.

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[MB968]

Your guess was correct. I did not replace my bushing, and as far as I could tell it was original. I checked the internal bore, and it was virtually identical to the new one, so I left it as is. Though you shouldn't grease an iolite, I probably added a very light coating of some lube to it. You aren't supposed to grease an oilite bushing, as the solids in grease which are usually clay based can actually plug up the labyrinth in the bushing. Oil which is trapped in the labyrinth is designed to flow out if the bushing gets hot from running without enough oil.



As I recall, the oilite bushing is in a through hole. So, it would be easy to push it out with a punch or a cylinder (piece of conduit, copper water pipe, socket, or the like that was a close fit. To install the new one, I'd use a plate over the bushing and tap the plate with a hammer. Or, you could pull it into place using a close fitting socket, put a threaded rod through it, use a nut/washer on the opposite side to run the nut down the threads and pull the bushing in place. Or if you have something like a tie rod tool, or the like that is in effect a c-clamp, you could use it to push it in. Always use something in between the bushing and the member that you are using to push or tap it in. If you have a copper plate, that would be the best, as it will somewhat conform to the profile of the bushing.



If it is not in a thru-hole, you will need a bushing/seal puller that will reach inside/past the bushing and pull it out from the back.

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[Paul W]

I did not replace my bushing when I did my starter.....but I learned the hard way that it can cause a starter not to turn on my son's Jetta. We replaced the starter, but not the bushing, new starter had the same issue. I found a link to a procedure....that said to use a tap, thread it into the bushing, then pull it out. Worked SUPER EASY for the Jetta. I went to Pepboys and bought a tap for $5 or so.



Here is a link to something I quickly googled "replace starter bushing tap"



http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=370867



Good luck

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[MB968]

I like the tap idea, never tried that. Would be a good way to get a bite on a blind hole bush.

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[flash]

i think that "blind hole bush" was at the tap too often. oops - sorry - wrong thread



back on topic - i don't remember that bushing being all that hard to remove. seems to me it popped out of there pretty easily.

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[Cloud9...68]

This is turning into a surprising long thread for something as simple as a starter that won't turn over, but since there seems to be some interest, here's the latest. I got a call from the place I ordered the new starter from telling me it's on backorder (shipping eta of Friday, 10/4/13), so I figured I might as well take mine out and do a few tests, in the unlikely event I find something that's fixable.



First, I checked the voltages - I'm getting +12V between the main battery cable and ground (duh), and also +12V between the starter ignitor wire and ground when the key is in the start position. So there's definitely current getting to the starter, which I already knew, since I could hear and feel the solenoid engage.



Also, the action of the pinion gear shaft is very smooth, and it snaps back smartly when I release it after pulling it out, so no sign of GSS.



Looking at the bushing, I can't say I see much that's very noteworthy. It fits snugly in its hole, with no sign that it's cocked or especially worn. I didn't try yanking it out, though. I agree that's it's probably a good idea to replace any bushing, especially one that's probably 21 years old, so I plan to replace mine, but I can't wrap my brain around how any sort of defect in this flimsy little bushing could cause a starter capable of turning over this beast of an engine from turning. In my case, there's no sign of a struggle - the starter doesn't turn at all. I would think if the bushing were the culprit, there would be some noise, or some other sign of the violence I would expect from something binding up this hefty starter and preventing it from turning,

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[flash]

it's all about engagement force and alignment. if the bushing is bigger than the shaft by more than a few thousandths of an inch, it can misalign. if the drive itself is weak, it won't go into the ring gear. i'm not saying that this is your problem, but it's worth looking at.



when bench testing your starter, unchecked, it should just about flip itself through a wall. those things have a lot of torque, and spin at about 200 rpm.

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[Cloud9...68]

"when bench testing your starter, unchecked, it should just about flip itself through a wall. those things have a lot of torque, and spin at about 200 rpm."



Yeah, that's why I haven't tried sending power to it unattached to the car. Also, it wouldn't necessarily prove anything - if it spins out in the open, it doesn't necessarily prove it will turn the engine over.

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