[Cloud9...68]

I thought I was making good progress on my DE driving, after having completed five weekend events, all at the same track, but a couple of very humbling events at a pair of tracks I hadn't driven before has exposed a significant issue with my driving. It feels like I'm on the verge of losing control at the entry of even fairly low speed corners, and I think I've figured out why - I've noticed I tend to jerk the wheel too hard when I complete my braking, and apply too much steering lock. This both upsets the balance of the car, and has the wheels cranked over too far when I start applying throttle on the way to the apex, overloading the front tires. And it's not just my imagination - a the last Porsche club event, a very low key follow-the-leader affair at a new track in the area, there was only one dummy who spun the entire day, and it was yours truly.



So, besides just the obvious admonition to "stop doing that," any tips on how to unlearn this bad habit? In other words, I need to dramatically improve the smoothness with which turn the wheel at turn-in, and not overdo the steering input, but how do I do this and still make it to the apex? Learning how to throttle steer, as discussed in another thread I posted recently, may allow me to reduce the amount of lock I need to apply, but I'm not sure I need to add a relatively advanced technique like this at this point. Does it sound like I'm waiting too long to begin my turn-in?

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[mikew968]

The first step is understanding. Do you completly understand turn-in, apex and track out. If not there are some good books on the subject. You can practice turn-in with your street car. Also, don't turn the wheel any more than necesary. Have you ridden with an instructor? Do you have an instructor in the car with you during your DE sessions?



Mike

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[Eric_K]

It sounds like you may need to start your turn in earlier and more gradual. Mike is right, you want to turn the wheel as little as possible. You will probably find the car will make the turn with less steering than you think. As an exercise, I would try hold the wheel with a very light grip. Without the death grip, it is hard to manhandle the wheel and may force you to be smoother with the steering.

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='mikew968' post='52622' date='May 15 2008, 09:16 PM']The first step is understanding. Do you completly understand turn-in, apex and track out. If not there are some good books on the subject. You can practice turn-in with your street car. Also, don't turn the wheel any more than necesary. Have you ridden with an instructor? Do you have an instructor in the car with you during your DE sessions?



Mike[/quote]

I have read and re-read so many books and articles on the art of high performance driving that if there were a final exam on the subject, I would ace it. My problem is with the application, as opposed ot the theory. I've been very consciously practicing turn-in (and "track-out") in my street car (even the 6000 lb+ Ford E350 van I drive to work daily as the driver of my vanpool <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> ), but the problem with this is that street driving differs so much from track driving in that you very seldom use the whole road on the street; needing to stay in you own lane makes the whole concept of turn-in/apex/track-out pretty unrealistic. But I do make an effort to practice the art of trying to apply as little steering lock as possible. And yes, I've ridden with many instructors in their cars, have had instructors drive my car, and of course always have an instructor ride with me during the DEs (with the exception of the last run at my last DE, where I was given the priviledge of going solo).



As I said, this issue with excessive/overly abrupt turn-in has really only reared its ugly head on unfamiliar tracks, though I realize this means I'm probably doing it to some degree as well at Motorsport Ranch. I'm hoping that now that I've identified this weakness, I can focus on it at my next event (in late June), and hopefully, under the tuteladge of a skilled instructor, figure out how to un-learn this habit. I need to convince myself that the car will make it to the apex with less, and smoother, steering input. I'll experiment with beginning the turn-in a bit earlier. Thanks for the advice.



For you seasoned drivers out there, how common a problem is this? I think it has become more apparent as I've picked up some speed, which is tricking me into thinking I need to crank the wheel RIGHT NOW or risk missing the apex.

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[RS Barn]

I think this is a function of focus and "relaxing" . It just sounds as you have an anxious moment between braking and turn in. Try to slow this process down and relax your hands.

Do you drive with stock steering wheel? The stock "Giant Wheel" forces you to turn the wheel much more agressively to rotate car. Smaller wheels turn quicker and you actually need to slow your hands.

Maybe you need a dose of 350mm streeing wheel.

Pete

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[mikew968]

What kind of feedback are getting from your instructors? Usually it is very easy to see what is going on when you are sitting in the next seat. Does the problem occur as speeds increase? I alway drive the"line" during wam-up and cool down laps.





Mike

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[Cloud9...68]

Pete, I think you're exactly right, I do tend to have an "anxious moment" somewhere between turn-in and apex, which is exacerbated by 1) increasing speed, and 2) an unfamiliar track. I do have the stock steering wheel; interesting suggestion about trying a smaller one. That's been on my wish list, anyway. With a smaller wheel, a smaller input (less rotation) will result in more turn of the wheels, so on the one hand, I would think I would get "slapped" even harder for making a jerky input, but on the other hand, it should teach me in a hurry to stop doing that, and really reward me for smoothness. This sounds like a great idea - thanks. Do you have any particular favorite 350 mm wheels that fit the 968 with a minimum of fuss?



But I still want to do my next event with the stock wheel, because I feel that I should be able to correct my turn-in problem without having to modify my car's hardware. Then, once I feel like my fundamentals are on solid footing, I'll go with a new wheel. What a great suggestion - thanks.



MikeW - To be honest, my instructors haven't picked up on this, I suppose because it's not all that detectable until it causes me to spin, at which point, the focus quickly turns to getting out of the spin without mechanical damage or bodily injury. This is one I've pretty much self-diagnosed - sure felt good when the light came on.



Thanks everyone for the great inputs. This is what makes this forum such an incredible resource.

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[mikew968]

Proper turn-in is a skill you should talk with your instructor before your next session. Key him in to what is going on and he should be able to seeit and help.



Mike

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[Cloud9...68]

Definitely - that's what I was planning to do. I'm looking forward to an enjoyable and informative session, since I'll have something specific to work on.

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[333pg333]

It can also be totally affected by what type of braking you're doing. If you go to unfamiliar tracks and tend to drive pretty hard, you might be late braking so much that you are shooting past the natural turn in point for that respective corner? It could come down to your brake setup. When I first started doing some track work I was using EBC brake pads. These were meant to be pretty good but I found that they, along with the rest of my then stock setup (Mo30) really didn't help much in retarding the car if I was coming in pretty hot for a particular corner. I would have to really stomp on the pedal and wrench the nose around. As time went by and I progressed to a better setup I found that I could brake later but also more balanced and thus make my apexes.

I also seem to remember you asking about throttle steering. Don't forget this in your 'armory'.

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[bob blackwell]

All good information but the solution may be very simple. Look further ahead and you will have more time to start your turn-in for the corner and it will be smoother. You will have to force your eyes to look out further down the track as you drive at first, but it will become a habit after a while. Practice looking further ahead as you drive every day - it will help on the street too. Good luck, Bob Blackwell.

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[Eric_K]

Since you mention this is at tracks that are new to you, I'm guessing you might be trying to go too fast too soon. Slow down, get the turn in points and the line figured out and then pick up the speed later. Don't rush yourself.

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[flash]

i think bob has hit on something - a natural tendency for drivers on new tracks, and especially ones new to tracks at all, is a failure ot look far enough ahead



on the street, drivers generally look at what is right in front of them, and not the exit of a turn - this means that on the track, you only see the entrance - this frequently causes you to early apex the turn, which then gets you into an ugly situation trying to finish the turn, requiring a lot of correction, braking, and frequently spinning out halfway through



practice looking all the way to the exit of the turn - by default you will see the entrance, and the line - it takes time, but will become second nature - you will soon start to feel a "rhythm", and that jerky feeling will subside



i just went through this on my last track day - i was so rusty, and it had been so long since i had really driven (15 years), that the bad habit mentioned above were showing up in my line - took me half a day to get over it - made me crazy - lol - just as i started to feel fast again, my rear suspension slipped an adjuster, and my day was over

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[Cloud9...68]

All good inputs, but as far as the looking ahead thing, there is not a single element of driving that's been pounded into me harder than the concept of looking through the turns, and then WAY down the track, by all my instructors, so I think I've got this one down. It was very unnatural to me at first, as I tend to look down, even when I walk (something fascinating about the tops of my shoes, I guess), so I've literally re-trained my eyes to look ahead when I drive on the street, walk, during my runs, etc. But you never know, maybe I'm not applying this practice as well as I should when the adrenalin of driving at speed on a track kicks in.



I'm hoping that now that I'm aware of my turn-in problem, my next instructor will be able to give me some one-on-one insights as to what's causing me to do this, and then advice to what I need to do differently.



Erik_K, I definitely think you have a point about my not getting the turn-in points down correctly before I try to start going faster; this does sound like a logical reason why my turn-in issues are so much more prevalent at unfamiliar tracks.



But of course, I'm never going to get to practice un-learning this bad habit if I don't get my overheating problem fixed (will troubleshoot the water pump tonight by re-installing the thermostat, refilling the reservoir, opening the heater hose where it enters the pupmp, and manually spinning the pump to see if water squirts out). If it's not the pump, then it's either a massive blockage somewhere, or heaven forbid, a blown head gasket, which would put my track day activities on ice for quite some time. Wish me luck!

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