[rxter]

My other black car is starting to piss me off (long story not for this forum) and I am thinking about ditching her in favor of something else. I'm looking at a variety of small cars (trying to stay in the true sports car arena as described elsewhere). In checking out some Miatas I see really puny HP and torque numbers compared to our beloved 968, which I am holding as the gold standard. However, the cars are about 1000 pounds lighter as well.



I am wondering if there are any rules of thumb regarding pounds per HP and pounds per ft/lb torque that you can use to determine how a car will feel before you drive it? Naturally driving is the best way to get that feel, but I am hoping to get a better understanding from the intelligent folks here.

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[flash]

13:1 seems to be the minimum for "fun" - all of the sports cars i've had, regardless of weight, felt slow until it got to that point - it was very typical to have a car with 17:1 or even 20:1 though in stock trim - these cars were still considered "fun" by most people, but really because of the very deceiving ability to toss them around, unlike their polara - the lateral Gs made up for the lack of forward ones



10:1 seems to be an optimal number for a hot street car - more than that and while fun to stomp the pedal, is very rarely actually used

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[Anchorman]

So let's see - according the this site, the stock cab weighs 3,240 lbs. and the engine puts out 240 hp, so that's 13.5:1 - and I'd say that's about how the car feels. My first sports car, a 1962 Corvette, was at about the 10:1 level, and that's also about how I remember the car feeling. While I'm satisfied with the 968, I wouldn't mind a bit more power. With the Corvette, I never felt I needed more.

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[Duckman]

10:1 has been the Holy Grail but few cars have attained it.



Here's a nice sports car that should meet everyone's definition: http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p...&cardist=90



To cut to the chase, the 2003/2004 Mazdaspeed Miata has a ratio of 14.2:1 but extremely agile and very drivable. By contrast, the 1996 first generation Miata was a little lighter but had a lot less power. It's ratio is about 17.9:1.

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[ds968]

what's wrong with a 951 ? you'll get as good of a hp & torque per lb ratio as you'll find out there ( except in uber-sports cars ) and you can toss that around corners with even better results than a pure stock 968.

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[Cloud9...68]

For the best hp/weight/dollars, it's hard top beat a late model Corvette. You should be able to pick up a late C5, which is below the coveted 10:1, for a very reasonable price. You might even be able to swing a first-year C6, which puts out a stout 400 HP (OMG!) for a decent price, given the weakening economy. But of course you have to be a "Corvette person," which I'm really not, though it's hard to argue with the sheer excellence of the newer Vettes.

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[flash]

agreed - never been a fan of the vette, with the exception of pre 70



can't argue with the numbers of the new one - not big on the interior, and wish they had ducked the rear lines down, but when they went back to the curves, it started catching my eye again



of course, i still can't wear belt buckles that big, so it's likely not in my future

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[rxter]

Not much of a vette guy either, although admittedly I've not been in a newer one. My last encounter was a mid 90s' C4.



[ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND]





Felt like I was in a bath tub driving a tank. I like cars that are taught. Another question for me would be whether the C5 has the legs of a German car. We all konw and love the plastic bits that fall off of our 968s, and the rubber that rots, but if the engine is sound our cars will easily go 200K. Can a 2000 era chivolet do that?



And how about a 91 Elan? Seems like there are very few of those, so it might be a real hassle to get them serviced - parts and such. Small company too that might not provide any parts for a 91 any more.

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[Cloud9...68]

Interesting thought on the '91 Elan. A rare and desirable car, but not everybody's cup of tea, for sure. It had and Isuzu engine, so at least the motor should be pretty reliable. It would probably be even harder to find one of those than a 968, though.



How about an early '90s turbo MR2? I drove one once, and found it to be plenty quick. Should be fairly reliable, and probably pretty cheap as well.

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[flash]

both interesting cars - there are a couple of those elans floating around my neck of the woods - the second MR2 (once they straightened out the rear suspension) was an attractive and fun to drive car - spun like a sewing machine - pretty easy to get nearly 300hp out of them too

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[wjk_glynn]

I recently drove a C6 Z06 with about 4K miles on it (its on sale at a local dealer, asking $55K). It has the 7-liter 505-hp motor and its weight-to-power ratio is 6.2-lbs/hp.



I was vaguely disappointed for a kinda odd reason. Now don't get me wrong, it is HUGELY powerful and gives a sense of immense grip (note that I didn't get anywhere near exploring its performance envelope on the drive). But... and I never thought I'd ever say this... but there is such a thing as too much power (for the street), at least for me. So my comments in the next paragraph are in the context of the Z06 on the street (track is a different kettle of fish).



When I was on the test drive, we were on a local highway (280) for bits of it. I'd slow down to 55-mph to allow the traffic in front pull away and then I'd gun it. There was an instant roar, the outside world goes a bit blurry and you're instantly at 90-mph. Then you're off the gas, glancing in the mirror for CHP. You slow down. You repeat. And after about a half dozen of those, it got kinda boring. The problem is that you have no sense of accelerating because you're at extra-legal speeds so quickly. Its too damn fast to allow you time to enjoy it. A few weeks before that, I drove a 2001 Boxster S. Nice car. Handles great. Nowhere near as powerful as the Vette, but at least you got time to enjoy its acceleration and it was just more fun.



Now I do think the Z06 would make an outstanding track car where you can explore its limits (if you take your brave pills).



Karl.

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[wjk_glynn]

[quote name='rxter' post='62167' date='Oct 24 2008, 03:26 PM']...admittedly I've not been in a newer one. My last encounter was a mid 90s' C4.[/quote]



I've driven the C4 and the C6... The C6 is a vast improvement. If you have a few hours to kill on a Saturday, I suggest popping down to your local Chevy dealer and giving a C6 a spin.



Now its not the car for me... but everyone should at least try a recent Corvette. You might be pleasantly surprised.



Karl.

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[flash]

i have had the same sensation in a number of cars - there is absolutely such a thing as too much power for the street - the first time i drove a big block cobra i felt the same way - same went for the countach and the diablo

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[Lord_Galva]

This is why I have fallen in love with my Audi 4k.



It has no power (100hp in 1985) but I love being able to floor it and shift through 3-4 gears getting up to the speed limit. (shifting at 4k rpms)



I have almost as much fun in it as I did in my 968.



The sound is great and it feels rather good for what it is.



I'm torn between modding the 4k or saving for a 968.



And with the current economy 968's have fallen into under 10k prices.

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[josephsc]

Hard to argue against a 'Vette. I can only make a cheap-ass remark about having too much hair on my head to fit-in with the 'Vette crowd.



Another thing 968's (and Porsche's in general) have got going is the stopping power. 'Hands of God' stopping power right under your feet. I remember talking to a Z06 guy at a track, and he was complaining about 1) brake fading and 2) replacing rotors every track day (not just pads -- the whole thing).

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[S_Cal968]

I originally chose the 968 as a good all-around car, good handling & decent mpg, [compared to other stock cars] and reasonable power to weight ratio. However, lately I've been keeping an eye on what 993's and later Vettes are going for. Both offer about the same mpg as the 68 and have 320+ hp [minimum] on tap for that all important adrenaline rush. Sadly with the drop in the 68 price it's not worth selling.



I had an opportunity to drive a 420hp M5, [9.5:1 hp/lb] and what a blast that was! It's a heavy comfortable car that can be docile at slow speeds and a fire breathing dragon when the you stomp the pedal. I have no need for a heavy 4-door car, but this reminded me of what a high horsepower car feels like. The 68 has an impressive 4-cyl, [nice power to weight ratio] but is pale when compared to the smooth power delivery of a V8 or larger engine.

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[wjk_glynn]

[quote name='josephsc' post='62181' date='Oct 25 2008, 07:57 AM']...I remember talking to a Z06 guy at a track, and he was complaining about 1) brake fading and 2) replacing rotors every track day (not just pads -- the whole thing).[/quote]



C5 or C6?



Karl.

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[rxter]

So I wasted a day test driving likely candidates - well I had fun but the grass looks like crap. Anyway, my rundown below. Keep in mind that I was looking in the <$15K range. I'll include the ask price to help normalize the "test". Also keep in mind that these were all at dealers. I really did not want to waste private sellers time when I knew we were just doing some research. I have no trouble wasting used car dealer time though...



I concentrated on the sports car definition, except with reference to engine location. A couple of the mid-engine cars were a must drive on my list. Rag tops, light, RWD, manual trans.



In no particular order.



97 Boxter - 2.5L - 85K miles - $14K ask price.



   



Something bad wrong in the engine. Tried to go but bogged down. So I did a once around the block at a very leisurely pace and returned it to the lot before it blew. Impossible to tell how much giddiup it had, but the car was supremely tossable at <50 mph. Good driving position, very refined. Good brakes. May have been the pick of the litter except for the weezy engine. I'll try another one that can actualy consume gas next time out.





97 Z3 - 1.9L - 104K miles - $9K ask price.



   



Top end rebuild recently completed. Burned oil. Very tossable. Happy to rev to 6.5K limit and banging the next gear was no problem. This car was well used and pretty sloppy. Steering was vague and shifter gates were worn. Loads of fun though. Engine to weight was too puny for me. Having said that I hit 85 a couple of times with no problem. Body roll not as bad as I expected. Reminded me a lot of the e30 convertible that I had, except that my e30 had a slush box and a smaller engine. Switch gear was straight out of the 80s. For a car that has seen its better days this one had a reasonably stout suspension and ran well. My daugther's pick of the day - she really likes the styling.



01 MR2 Spyder 1.8L - 47K miles - $11.9 ask price.



   



I had high hopes for this one. Low mileage and great shape all the way around. Headlight covers were faded, but that was the only tell that this car has been around for 7 years. Other than that is was immaculate. Happy rever. Banged shifts at 7K routinely - even got a little clutch burn when I feathered to much on a 180 mid-intersection romp. Very tossable - the best handler of the group. Felt like it was on rails. I could not upset the chasis no matter what I did. Would be a blast in the tightest of tight sections of any canyon cruise. However, that seemed to come at a price. The car felt like a go-cart. Every imperfection in the road was magnified through the chasis. Lots and lots of engine noise, and generally an unpleasant drive. I guess that I am really more of a GT guy. For the purest go carter this is the car though - no question. Most fun for the dough for sure.



97 Mazda Miata - 1.8L - 81K miles - $6.8K ask price.



   



Not expecting much from this old tired girl. I was very surprised. This car was, per dealer <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/huh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> a one owner female ride who fell in love with a red S2000 and traded on the spot. I typically take dealer claims with a salt block, but I believed in this case. The car was immaculate. Absolutely no wear indicators anywhere on the car. Boots and bays were immaculate - no oil, no dirt, no critters, nothing. The seats were cloth, and looked new. The car ran like new as well. This place required a dealer to accompany me, so I took it a bit easy (only got arched eyebrows 2 or 3 times). I wound her up pretty fast and banged a couple of shifts. I can see why Mazda has sold almost a million of these things. Very fun car to drive, and very easy to live with. Seems to have the right combination of the true essence of a sports car with the liveability of a daily commuter. It won my heart for the day.



Next stop is a S2000 and a Boxter that runs. After I cut the grass <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[wjk_glynn]

[quote name='rxter' post='62220' date='Oct 26 2008, 09:15 AM']...

97 Boxter - 2.5L - 85K miles - $14K ask price.

...[/quote]



Earlier in this thread I mentioned I recently drove a Boxster S. You'll understand why I bring it up again when you read the following...



A colleague of mine was interested in buying a Boxster. Now he knows (or more accurately knew) nothing about Porsches so I give him model advice, guided him to good places to get PPIs done, etc. And when he bought one and brought it into work for the first time, that was when I drove it.



The one thing he excells at is finding good deals. Basically he spends a lot of time researching prices and then waits for the right car at the right price. In this particular case, what he did was watch the various listings (Craigs, etc.) for quite a while and saw someone having to sell their car quickly (combination divorce and foreclosure) in Sacramento.



There he found a 2001 Boxster S with 49K miles for $13K. Cosmetically the car was great (all original paint, etc.). Came with original 18" turbo style twists and a set of Ronal (sorta speedline lookalike) 18" two piece rims. Very nice looking. He immediately put another $3K into the car in maintenance.



So for $16K, he got himself a very nice car.



Karl.

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[rxter]

Hit the streets again Saturday with Mikey. Found a local Boxter with 100K miles on it. Ran like a salded dog. Mikey was absolutely hooting as I bent the frame around 180 cut backs on a 4-lane suburban road. I know that we have some Boxter bashers here, but I gotta say that the car (97 with a 2.5 I think) was a lot of fun to drive. The mid-engine layout makes it feel like it is pivoting on a single point. What a blast.



This one was cheap too, but I don't know that I want to take on a 100K P as a daily driver. The maintenance could get ugly.



So Mikey said that he liked it better than the 968, and thought it was a faster, better car. I gently instructed that this was only because I don't drive the 968 as hard. He disbelieved. So I pulled him through a tire smoking, clutch burning 180 in the 968, and blatted up against the rev limiter as we approached 80 in 3rd gear, when I simply looked over and grinned....



Only the S2000 still on my list to try.

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